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aidanolesen New Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2018 Posts: 6
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:26 pm Post subject: Horn for both Jazz and Orchestra |
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Hey guys,
I'm a high schooler looking to upgrade to a higher end horn and was wondering what horn I could buy that could double as a lead Jazz and Orchestral horn.
I've read a few forums and seen a few videos that say to avoid Bachs for jazz but I just wanted to get some other opinions.
Thanks,
Aidan _________________ Aidan Olesen |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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I think at the high school level you don't need to worry much. Bachs are certainly OK for both, in fact I would wager that there have been more Bachs played in orchestras and jazz than any other maker. (they sell more than most so the odds are with me )
If you prefer to avoid Bach feel free to do so, there are many great horns out there. |
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snichols Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Posts: 586 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Bach 72 would be good. Maybe a Bach 43. |
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Winghorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2156 Location: Olympia, Washington
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Bachs are wonderful horns that can do it all. Play a few, find one you like and you may be set for life.
Yamahas are also fine instruments, as are most widely accepted "mainstream" horns.
These instruments are played by the pros and will be easy to sell later on if you decide you want something else.
Good luck!
Steve |
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Rompson Regular Member
Joined: 04 May 2013 Posts: 86
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Which is going to be the primary use? Orchestra or jazz? And when you say jazz do you mean lead or solo or something else?
IME it’s nearly impossible to find a horn that does everything very very well, so find a horn that does the one thing that you like very well, but can also do other other things. Don’t go to specialized right away, but try to avoid going too general as well.
If you are looking for a “do all Bach” try a lightweight, or an early Elkhart (100000 ish or below). The early Elkharts are a little less heavy. But honestly any pro level trumpet will be an improvement, and then you can figure out your likes and dislikes later. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Winghorn wrote: | Bachs are wonderful horns that can do it all. Play a few, find one you like and you may be set for life.
Yamahas are also fine instruments, as are most widely accepted "mainstream" horns.
These instruments are played by the pros and will be easy to sell later on if you decide you want something else.
Good luck!
Steve |
The bolded portion is a very good point. While many of us have kept our high school horns, if you purchase used and need to sell in the future you will not lose much if any.
Also, these horns are generally accepted and if you go on to college you can probably use the same horn without issue. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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I don't get along with Bachs so much but I've played with great players who played Bachs. Ingrid Jensen played one. Can't get much better than that. To be nice, saying Bachs don't work in big band or jazz combo is outrageous, so whoever you've been listening to, whatever else they say might be suspect, also.
FWIW, I found the old Conn Connstellation very versatile. Works for everything. My Benge, with chages in mouthpieces can do both, although I don't play serious orchestral work.
But I've also played a Severinsen for everything. Will work well for H.S. playing as well.
Look at the Yamahas also if you're looking to buy new and don't want to break the bank.
For H.S. playing, there are a myriad of choices. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:09 am; edited 2 times in total |
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agolden Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 483 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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A good Bach 43 should work out well. _________________ trumpet - synths - cornet
Bach//Blackburn
Patrick Mouthpieces |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2660 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:32 am Post subject: |
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You really do not want to worry about this: at the high school I teach at, no one worries about their trumpet being fro jazz etc, and not one worries about their mouthpiece either. Most play a 1 1/2C or 3C, including lead in big band. the one exception is for piccolo trumpet.
Far better for you to practice playing well in both orchestra and jazz on the same gear.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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rockford Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 2477 Location: Northern VA
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:51 am Post subject: |
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Keep it simple and uncomplicated. With a Bach ML 37 (or equivalent) and a 3C mouthpiece you can play anywhere. _________________ Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190. |
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Geodude Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Chicago 'burbs
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:14 am Post subject: |
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I'll pile on. Take a listen to Arturo Sandoval's Trumpet Evolution - it ain't the arrow, it is the Indian. Your horn and your mouthpiece are part of the package but you are going to sound like you. Increase/improve your practice routine and you are likely to make a bigger change in your sound than a hardware change will.
Take your teacher or some other very experienced player (not the kid who sits next to you in chem class) and try some horns. Be critical and pck the one that you like how it plays and they like how it sounds out front.
You are shopping at a very good time. There are a lot of good options for you to chose from both new and old. Test a lot of horns and pick the one that speaks to you. Might be a Bach or a Yamaha but it could just as easily be an Adams, Benge, Conn, Eclipse, Getzen, Holton, Kanstul, Olds, Powell, Reynolds, Schilke, Stomvi, Scodwell or some other great horn that is a good fit for you. Probably best to get something pretty mainstream now; you can always get something more specialized in a few years after your playing has progressed and really figure out what you want/need.
Practice the right stuff, the right way, an awful lot.
Have fun and good luck. |
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jengstrom Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 427 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:15 am Post subject: |
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rockford wrote: | Keep it simple and uncomplicated. With a Bach ML 37 (or equivalent) and a 3C mouthpiece you can play anywhere. |
+1, even though I'm not a big 37 fan. I just prefer the blow of my lightwiehgt 43 and 72 better than almost any 37 I've played. However, the fact is that the 37 is the standard to which pretty much everything else is compared. This is a great starting point. If you want a more open blow, I highly recommend the 72*, which is a real chameleon. It will do it all, very well.
And a 3C is a very versatile mouthpiece.
John _________________ Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:23 am Post subject: |
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jengstrom wrote: | rockford wrote: | Keep it simple and uncomplicated. With a Bach ML 37 (or equivalent) and a 3C mouthpiece you can play anywhere. |
+1, even though I'm not a big 37 fan. I just prefer the blow of my lightwiehgt 43 and 72 better than almost any 37 I've played. However, the fact is that the 37 is the standard to which pretty much everything else is compared. This is a great starting point. If you want a more open blow, I highly recommend the 72*, which is a real chameleon. It will do it all, very well.
And a 3C is a very versatile mouthpiece.
John |
+2! _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Try the new Bach 190/37, 43, or 72 models.
They are a modern version of the early Bach models and play fabulously.
There are horns that can do everything. The 37 bell works everywhere and the 43 is right behind. The 72 is not for everybody. I've had all three bells in the the 180 series but the 190 models are better players.
The Schilke HD models are also extremely versatile as are the Yamahas.
R. Tomasek |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9343 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:59 am Post subject: |
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I've played a old Bach ML 43 all over the place for 30+ years - symphony orchestra, big band lead, brass quintet, concert band, German band, etc. It works fine for whatever, as long as you understand the genre and play in the correct style. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Horn for both Jazz and Orchestra |
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aidanolesen wrote: | I've read a few forums and seen a few videos that say to avoid Bachs for jazz |
Why?
Maybe avoid those forums and videos
There are/and have been plenty of pros that use Bach for lead jazz.
Look, a good horn is a good horn is a good horn. You've had lots of good suggestions above for mainstream horns. It's really your approach to the music that matters.
(Do you care that the vast majority of current professional symphony players in the US primarily use C trumpets as their main horn?) |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7769 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:49 am Post subject: |
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I've been using a Schilke B3L since 1969. Started with fixed leadpipe, had converted to tuning bell. Played rock bands, lead in various big band/jazz situations and use for orchestra in pops or when parts are too low for C. Currently on my second one, never looked back.
If you're serious about orchestra, I'd also get serious about a C horn eventually, then you'll have to worry about "which C is best for orchestra"... That'll really bring in the replies. |
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Pete Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:56 am Post subject: |
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There isn't anything wrong with a Bach. IMHO the 37 bell is adaptable to both settings. I own a 43*/43 but use it mostly for commercial work along with my 8310Z. The 72* is a bit wider in sound dispersion and blends really well in all settings. (*lightweight model)
And don't be fooled by the bell #'s: from most open to tightest bells are: 72,37,43 for the ML models. The 37 is actually between the 72 and 43 bell tapers.
Pete |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:02 am Post subject: |
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For whatever reason, my accuracy is way better on a Bach 43 than a Bach 37. I've discovered this over and over again.
I had an early Elkhart 37 that my teacher picked out for me that I played for years. I was much more successful when I replaced it with a Schilke S-32.
That's why I strongly recommend trying before buying. Just because a 37 works great for a lot of players, it might not necessarily be great for you. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7004 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Aiden,
Welcome to Trumpet Herald! This year my High School class is celebrating our 40th anniversary of graduating and my mind has been stumbling through wonderful memories of that period for some time. Most of my memories center around band.
Back then, it was important for us in the trumpet section to buy a silver trumpet for marching band. It was a badge of honor and commitment. No one told us to do it, we just wanted to look our best! When my opportunity came to purchase one for myself, here are the things that were important to me:
1) It needed to be silver, of course
2) I didn't like the Bachs everyone else was buying because they seemed heavy, clunky and common. I didn't like doing exactly what my peers did. I wanted to be distinct.
3) I did like the Benge one player had, because it was light, beautifully intricate and had that forward facing 2nd valve slide.
That's what went into my decision! It turned out that the 5X I purchased was really good at most things and not so good at only two things, none of which had anything to do with the type of music I played. It also turned out that I had a couple of preferences I knew nothing about back then, but later were reflected in the character of that Benge.
1) I was also in choir and had a singer's ear for pitch.
2) I liked the feel of blowing "through" my horn not blowing "into" my horn.
These two things still govern my preferences. I like a horn that plays accurately enough, but lets me place each pitch where I want them. I like the feel of resistance coming from deep down the horn, not right up front.
I learned here on TH that the first characteristic is called "slotting," while the second is called...I have no idea! I just know that both of them have less to do with what music I played and more to do with the type of person and player I was becoming.
If you have a teacher, it might be a good idea to ask them what kind of trumpet would be a good fit for you, personally. Then, try a bunch of different models and buy the one that most excites you, because that's what it's about.
Get excited and stay excited. It really helps for those hours practicing! _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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