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Horn for both Jazz and Orchestra


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aidanolesen
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Joined: 20 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:26 pm    Post subject: Horn for both Jazz and Orchestra Reply with quote

Hey guys,

I'm a high schooler looking to upgrade to a higher end horn and was wondering what horn I could buy that could double as a lead Jazz and Orchestral horn.

I've read a few forums and seen a few videos that say to avoid Bachs for jazz but I just wanted to get some other opinions.

Thanks,
Aidan
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think at the high school level you don't need to worry much. Bachs are certainly OK for both, in fact I would wager that there have been more Bachs played in orchestras and jazz than any other maker. (they sell more than most so the odds are with me )

If you prefer to avoid Bach feel free to do so, there are many great horns out there.
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snichols
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach 72 would be good. Maybe a Bach 43.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachs are wonderful horns that can do it all. Play a few, find one you like and you may be set for life.

Yamahas are also fine instruments, as are most widely accepted "mainstream" horns.

These instruments are played by the pros and will be easy to sell later on if you decide you want something else.

Good luck!

Steve
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Rompson
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is going to be the primary use? Orchestra or jazz? And when you say jazz do you mean lead or solo or something else?

IME it’s nearly impossible to find a horn that does everything very very well, so find a horn that does the one thing that you like very well, but can also do other other things. Don’t go to specialized right away, but try to avoid going too general as well.

If you are looking for a “do all Bach” try a lightweight, or an early Elkhart (100000 ish or below). The early Elkharts are a little less heavy. But honestly any pro level trumpet will be an improvement, and then you can figure out your likes and dislikes later.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winghorn wrote:
Bachs are wonderful horns that can do it all. Play a few, find one you like and you may be set for life.

Yamahas are also fine instruments, as are most widely accepted "mainstream" horns.

These instruments are played by the pros and will be easy to sell later on if you decide you want something else.

Good luck!

Steve

The bolded portion is a very good point. While many of us have kept our high school horns, if you purchase used and need to sell in the future you will not lose much if any.

Also, these horns are generally accepted and if you go on to college you can probably use the same horn without issue.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get along with Bachs so much but I've played with great players who played Bachs. Ingrid Jensen played one. Can't get much better than that. To be nice, saying Bachs don't work in big band or jazz combo is outrageous, so whoever you've been listening to, whatever else they say might be suspect, also.

FWIW, I found the old Conn Connstellation very versatile. Works for everything. My Benge, with chages in mouthpieces can do both, although I don't play serious orchestral work.

But I've also played a Severinsen for everything. Will work well for H.S. playing as well.

Look at the Yamahas also if you're looking to buy new and don't want to break the bank.

For H.S. playing, there are a myriad of choices.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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agolden
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good Bach 43 should work out well.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really do not want to worry about this: at the high school I teach at, no one worries about their trumpet being fro jazz etc, and not one worries about their mouthpiece either. Most play a 1 1/2C or 3C, including lead in big band. the one exception is for piccolo trumpet.

Far better for you to practice playing well in both orchestra and jazz on the same gear.

cheers

Andy
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rockford
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep it simple and uncomplicated. With a Bach ML 37 (or equivalent) and a 3C mouthpiece you can play anywhere.
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Geodude
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll pile on. Take a listen to Arturo Sandoval's Trumpet Evolution - it ain't the arrow, it is the Indian. Your horn and your mouthpiece are part of the package but you are going to sound like you. Increase/improve your practice routine and you are likely to make a bigger change in your sound than a hardware change will.

Take your teacher or some other very experienced player (not the kid who sits next to you in chem class) and try some horns. Be critical and pck the one that you like how it plays and they like how it sounds out front.

You are shopping at a very good time. There are a lot of good options for you to chose from both new and old. Test a lot of horns and pick the one that speaks to you. Might be a Bach or a Yamaha but it could just as easily be an Adams, Benge, Conn, Eclipse, Getzen, Holton, Kanstul, Olds, Powell, Reynolds, Schilke, Stomvi, Scodwell or some other great horn that is a good fit for you. Probably best to get something pretty mainstream now; you can always get something more specialized in a few years after your playing has progressed and really figure out what you want/need.

Practice the right stuff, the right way, an awful lot.

Have fun and good luck.
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jengstrom
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockford wrote:
Keep it simple and uncomplicated. With a Bach ML 37 (or equivalent) and a 3C mouthpiece you can play anywhere.


+1, even though I'm not a big 37 fan. I just prefer the blow of my lightwiehgt 43 and 72 better than almost any 37 I've played. However, the fact is that the 37 is the standard to which pretty much everything else is compared. This is a great starting point. If you want a more open blow, I highly recommend the 72*, which is a real chameleon. It will do it all, very well.

And a 3C is a very versatile mouthpiece.

John
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jengstrom wrote:
rockford wrote:
Keep it simple and uncomplicated. With a Bach ML 37 (or equivalent) and a 3C mouthpiece you can play anywhere.


+1, even though I'm not a big 37 fan. I just prefer the blow of my lightwiehgt 43 and 72 better than almost any 37 I've played. However, the fact is that the 37 is the standard to which pretty much everything else is compared. This is a great starting point. If you want a more open blow, I highly recommend the 72*, which is a real chameleon. It will do it all, very well.

And a 3C is a very versatile mouthpiece.

John


+2!
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try the new Bach 190/37, 43, or 72 models.
They are a modern version of the early Bach models and play fabulously.
There are horns that can do everything. The 37 bell works everywhere and the 43 is right behind. The 72 is not for everybody. I've had all three bells in the the 180 series but the 190 models are better players.
The Schilke HD models are also extremely versatile as are the Yamahas.
R. Tomasek
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played a old Bach ML 43 all over the place for 30+ years - symphony orchestra, big band lead, brass quintet, concert band, German band, etc. It works fine for whatever, as long as you understand the genre and play in the correct style.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Horn for both Jazz and Orchestra Reply with quote

aidanolesen wrote:
I've read a few forums and seen a few videos that say to avoid Bachs for jazz

Why?
Maybe avoid those forums and videos
There are/and have been plenty of pros that use Bach for lead jazz.

Look, a good horn is a good horn is a good horn. You've had lots of good suggestions above for mainstream horns. It's really your approach to the music that matters.

(Do you care that the vast majority of current professional symphony players in the US primarily use C trumpets as their main horn?)
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using a Schilke B3L since 1969. Started with fixed leadpipe, had converted to tuning bell. Played rock bands, lead in various big band/jazz situations and use for orchestra in pops or when parts are too low for C. Currently on my second one, never looked back.

If you're serious about orchestra, I'd also get serious about a C horn eventually, then you'll have to worry about "which C is best for orchestra"... That'll really bring in the replies.
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Pete
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There isn't anything wrong with a Bach. IMHO the 37 bell is adaptable to both settings. I own a 43*/43 but use it mostly for commercial work along with my 8310Z. The 72* is a bit wider in sound dispersion and blends really well in all settings. (*lightweight model)

And don't be fooled by the bell #'s: from most open to tightest bells are: 72,37,43 for the ML models. The 37 is actually between the 72 and 43 bell tapers.

Pete
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For whatever reason, my accuracy is way better on a Bach 43 than a Bach 37. I've discovered this over and over again.

I had an early Elkhart 37 that my teacher picked out for me that I played for years. I was much more successful when I replaced it with a Schilke S-32.

That's why I strongly recommend trying before buying. Just because a 37 works great for a lot of players, it might not necessarily be great for you.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aiden,

Welcome to Trumpet Herald! This year my High School class is celebrating our 40th anniversary of graduating and my mind has been stumbling through wonderful memories of that period for some time. Most of my memories center around band.

Back then, it was important for us in the trumpet section to buy a silver trumpet for marching band. It was a badge of honor and commitment. No one told us to do it, we just wanted to look our best! When my opportunity came to purchase one for myself, here are the things that were important to me:

1) It needed to be silver, of course
2) I didn't like the Bachs everyone else was buying because they seemed heavy, clunky and common. I didn't like doing exactly what my peers did. I wanted to be distinct.
3) I did like the Benge one player had, because it was light, beautifully intricate and had that forward facing 2nd valve slide.

That's what went into my decision! It turned out that the 5X I purchased was really good at most things and not so good at only two things, none of which had anything to do with the type of music I played. It also turned out that I had a couple of preferences I knew nothing about back then, but later were reflected in the character of that Benge.

1) I was also in choir and had a singer's ear for pitch.
2) I liked the feel of blowing "through" my horn not blowing "into" my horn.

These two things still govern my preferences. I like a horn that plays accurately enough, but lets me place each pitch where I want them. I like the feel of resistance coming from deep down the horn, not right up front.

I learned here on TH that the first characteristic is called "slotting," while the second is called...I have no idea! I just know that both of them have less to do with what music I played and more to do with the type of person and player I was becoming.

If you have a teacher, it might be a good idea to ask them what kind of trumpet would be a good fit for you, personally. Then, try a bunch of different models and buy the one that most excites you, because that's what it's about.

Get excited and stay excited. It really helps for those hours practicing!
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