Best horn design for dark tone

[Bryceh1217]

I have been playing about 10 years now, and I take lessons from an instructor at the college I attend. I play LOTS of gigs, and I need a trumpet that has a dark tone. I currently play a Bach Strad 77, and it is dark. I also use a blessing 3c mouthpiece. The only problem with the strad is that when I let loose on it and increase in range and dynamic, my tone becomes more bright and brilliant (it's silver plate, and I have heard that silver plate is known to cause that). Normally when I play, I have a dark and warm tone. I have decent embouchure and have studied many breathing techniques. I was recommended by some people that Adams was the way to go now on trumpets, and that you could completely customize your horn through ACB. So, after looking on their website, I see horns that were designed to be dark, but those horns can also be altered to sound more bright through your customization. Horns that were recommended were the A9, A4, and A8. With me playing usually no less than 1-2 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, I need something that is durable as well. My question is- what are the best options for building a dark sounding horn? There are many options for materials (yellow brass<-my strad, gold brass, red brass, sterling silver) and many options for finish (gold plate, silver plate<-my strad, raw brass, lacquer). There are also options for bell thickness (.40, .45, .50, .55). So, without money factoring in, what is the best option for the perfect horn? Note that I have spoken with many representatives from ACB, but I want opinions from other people that don't have their jobs depending on how many horns they sell. Thanks in advance!
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King Silver Flair 2055T
Bach 3c

[boog]

FWIW, you will come out cheaper finding a mouthpiece that gives you the tone you are seeking. Of course, having a lot of horns is fun, too! Try a long cornet. Definitely "darker" sounding.

Seriously, cup design (depth, shape) and size makes a BIG difference in the sound of ANY trumpet.

Good luck in your horn safari!

[Bryceh1217]

I originally switched to my 3c from a CG3 because my tone quality was better and darker. What mouthpiece would you recommend? I have been looking at the Claude Gordon series by Marcinkiewicz and they do make a mouthpiece that is deeper and has a larger throat (I believe that is the difference, not entirely sure off the top of my head). I love the rim style and comfort of the Claude Gordon series, and I played on it for close to 3 years, but my tone seems to be better on the 3c. Should I consider going to a bigger mouthpiece?
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King Silver Flair 2055T
Bach 3c

[Richard III]

Marcinkiewizc gives you two options for the CGP, a 20 or 22 throat. I have one that I had them make with an 18 throat also. I really like the 18. It adds a core to the sound that the 22 or 20 didn't give me. I'm not sure if that's what you are looking for.
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[bach_again]

Often it is approach and sound concept that is at fault, rarely is it the gear.

The 7 bell is a little brighter than the 37, at least according to the Bach paraphernalia - I have never played a 7 bell.

We have to define what you are hearing as dark, as that term is loaded with contradiction. Whose sound are you trying to emulate? What is your sound concept and model? What is your use-case?

Let's lead with more details before making broad generalisations which will just result in you a) spending money b) messing your chops up c) wasting your time d) playing worse than before e) all of the above. This is a common route people go on.

Best,
Mike
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[TrentAustin]

If you're interested in an Adams call us 781-944-6247. I have worked with Miel on virtually every design and we have over 50 in stock right now.

My job doesn't depend on how many horns I sell. None of my sales team is on commission so it doesn't matter to them as well fyi.
-T
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[theslawdawg]

[cheiden]

In my limited experience, the most important equipment factors for dark versus bright are mouthpiece and bell flare. All the other factors you mention I consider way less important.

If your 3C resembles the Bach 3C then it's not going to aid playing dark. Shop for something deeper.

If the Bach 7 is one of the bright bells then that's obviously not helping matters. I'm a big fan of the 72 bell which typically plays way darker than the more common 43 and 37 bells.
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Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[shofarguy]

I'm going to make a wild guess here: It's probably not your instrument. Or your mouthpiece. It's probably your embouchure; how you play.

Why do I say this? The first thing is that the Bach 7/7 is a terrific sounding trumpet. Its timbre is very versatile and balanced with plenty of core, vibrance and character. It will respond better than any other Bach I've played to the changes in tone that I want to produce. It has a pretty open feeling blow.

The second thing is your description of how the horn is "dark sounding" when you play at low dynamics, but "gets bright" when you play at higher dynamics. On its own, you've described what is a universal characteristic of all but a few specialty trumpets. So, this leads me to believe there might be something unpleasant about the tone you're producing at high dynamics. I had this issue and was criticized for being too bright. The word they should have used is "shrill."

Why was this happening? Not the horn. I had a Benge 5X, which is a horn with good body in its sound when played correctly. Not mouthpiece. I had a Bach 1-1/2C which is commonly used in orchestral settings. It was me. I had learned to stretch my lips across my teeth to form my embouchure and it caused my tone to go shrill at high volume and in the higher registers. Ugly!

What cured it? I asked, in a thread here on TH some years back, how to develop quiet playing. I believe it was Pops McLaughlin who replied and gave me some exercises to do. I gave it three weeks of solid attention, only playing at the lowest volume I could sustain. That, and changing to a compression (rather than tension) based embouchure began to change how I sounded. It took a few weeks to integrate these new habits and it took a few years before I surpassed the range I had developed with the other approach, but I began to receive compliments on my tone from listeners and eventually from some pretty accomplished musicians.

These terms we bat around, like "dark," "bright" and such are often misleading because no one really knows what concept the author is trying to convey. If by "dark" you mean a full resonant set of low frequencies in your tone, I would use the term "rich" instead. If "dark" means a lack of high frequencies in your tone, I would call that a negative trait for trumpet most of the time. It's a dead sound.

The sound I prefer is what I call a "full, vibrant" tone that has good fundamental low-frequencies and brilliant high frequency overtones with a good mid-range overtone presence, too. The balance of those frequencies should be weighted toward the low frequency range at low frequencies and low notes, but shift gradually to the high, singing overtones as notes go up the scale and dynamics rise. But, there should always be a good amount of the lower frequencies in the tone, or the sound gets shrill. Back in the day, the parade judges' favorite term for this was "strident."
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Don Herman rev2]

The biggest factor in the tone of the horn itself is the bell shape.

Mouthpiece matters, and a deeper cup will tend to darker.

Most important of all is your mental sound and how you apply it (embouchure) to the mouthpiece and horn.

Finish is very much below those factors IME/IMO.
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[John Mohan]

Don is right - the bell shape (meaning how open the bell flaring is) is the largest determinant of darkness as far as the horn itself is concerned.

I think you'd get the most bang for your buck by buying a Bach 3B mouthpiece. The 3B rim is almost identical to the 3C rim (this is an exception when it comes to Bach mouthpieces with the same number size but different cup depth letter sizes - most have completely different rim contours). I imagine that Blessing mouthpiece of yours is pretty much the same size and shape as a Bach 3C so going to a Bach 3B won't feel strange for you. And the deeper cup of the 3B will do exactly what you want - it won't get as bright when you play louder and/or higher notes.

That's what I'd do anyway.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[Bryceh1217]

Thank you ALL for your replies! I am taking each of them into careful consideration! My instructor tells me that my embouchure is fine for the most part; the only hindrance is 3 crooked bottom teeth that causes me to play off center a by just a little. I am now shifting focus from horns to mouthpieces as some of you suggested. I am going to carefully exam my embouchure, though, just to be sure that I am truly fine. So, with that being said, what mouthpieces would any of you suggest? My 3c blessing is fairly similar to a bach 3c. There has already been a suggestion for a bach 3B. Any other mouthpieces I should look for? Again, thanks to all!
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King Silver Flair 2055T
Bach 3c

[TKSop]

Try a Curry 3B. or 3TC.

The Curry 3C is basically like a good 3C, the Curry 3B is deeper (and the TC much deeper) - both will naturally tend to be darker, but you get the same rim across multiple pieces (which is something you won't with Bachs).

[Rompson]

Try opening the throat of your mouthpiece. That’s the best way to avoid getting as much bright “edge” to your sound when you play loud. And it’s a lot cheaper than a new horn or a new mouthpiece.

[chuck in ny]

a good trumpet, for me anyway, has to have some balance of bright and dark. i play a WT and with its wide bell flare, it's great for playing dark. there are some trumpets good for dark sound with a majority that are bright and brassy.
going up the register and/or stepping on it is a good cue that dark time is over with and there will be a change in timbre. i strive to be able to maintain a sweet sound higher and higher up but all that can be accomplished is getting another half step here and there. your tone should be pleasing at high decibel and register and if not you have the usual suspects, you and your embouchure, mouthpiece, trumpet. if your trumpet is good to go and it sounds like it is a mouthpiece change is one place to start. severinsen makes a living being able to express well in the singing register and being able to mix that with insane flights into sizzle land.

[Ed Kennedy]

[HERMOKIWI]

In terms of equipment the things that most contribute to creating a darker sound are:

1. The bell shape. The slower the taper and the bigger the throat the darker the sound;

2. The bell material. The more copper the darker the sound.

3. The leadpipe. This can have a big effect on the timbre of the sound. I admit I don't know what characteristics contribute most to a darker sound. Maybe others can chime in on this.

4. Mouthpiece. The deeper the cup the darker the sound.

All of the above being said, your own embouchure is the most critical factor. Some players get a naturally extremely bright sound. There may be no equipment that can darken such a player's sound enough to satisfy that player.

Moving on to Adams horns, I have an Adams A8 with a gold brass 0.45 gauge bell. One custom feature of my horn is that it has a nickel silver leadpipe. I play a Reeves Dynamic Mass 43D mouthpiece with a threaded shank modified by Adams to fit the horn. The horn gets a gigantic sound, very dense with a very strong core, definitely on the dark side (compared to my other horns) but I can still easily carry over a full big band.

I play tested an Adams A4 before ordering my A8. My initial thought was to order the A8 with a red brass bell because I wanted to go very dark in terms of sound. However, the A4 I tested had a gold brass bell and I thought it produced exactly the sound I wanted, dark enough but still capable of plenty of brilliance (I get a naturally bright sound).

My A8 is gold plated. I don't think any finish has much of an affect in terms of relative brilliance/darkness. The A4 I tested had a lacquer finish.

The A4 is really quite similar to the A8 but a lot less expensive. Either horn is much different from your Bach 7/7 in terms of fullness and core of the sound (and I admit I like the 7/7 the best of any of the Bach horns, the 7/7 is a great horn). The A4 and A8 would certainly not be predicted to sound as brilliant as the Bach 7/7. So maybe an A4 or A8 would be exactly what you're looking for.

I got my A8 through J. Landress Brass in New York City and I highly recommend them. Talk to Josh or Kevin.
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HERMOKIWI

[cheiden]

Depending on your particular 3C, the Bach 1.5C might not feel too different and should play with a fuller, less bright sound.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[INTJ]

I think there comes a time in our development when we realize we sometimes have an edgy sound with no core, and decide that is a “bright” sound that we need to darken. So we start looking at deeper cup MPs, heavier horns, etc.

The issue often isn’t one of having too “bright” a sound but if not having a FULL trumpet sound full of overtones. If we go to the heavy horn, deep cup, etc. with our thin sound we may take off some edge but our sound is still thin.

The goal should be to develop a full sound with a solid core. Then we can TWEAK our tone with equipment. A full tone with core sounds good whether we are screaming bright as lead, medium blending in a trumpet section, or dark blending with a chamber orchestra.
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[Bryceh1217]

Thank you for all your responses! You have given me much to consider and process, and I want to thank you all for your feedback!
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Reynolds medalist
King Silver Flair 2055T
Bach 3c