Mahler symphonies...why the choice of keys for trumpet

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286

Why are Mahler’s trumpet parts written in F and B-flat (more keys?)?

I believe some of the reason has to do with the common use of the F & B-flat trumpets in "Mahler's" orchestras at the time, part of it is probably linked to the instruction offered by Berlioz in his "Treatise on Instrumentation and Orchestration" (1843/1855) along with Strauss' revision of Berlioz' book (1904/1948), and part of it is linked to attempting to keep as much of each musical passage within the staff to avoid excessive use of ledger lines. Strauss continued in the vein of Berlioz by putting passages in the tonal center of each passage (e.g. Don Juan is an excellent example). Mahler, on the other hand, seemed to gravitate to employing the two most popular trumpets of the time, F and B-flat. I don't have time to research all of this right now, but I'm guessing someone has. Some of it may have been a blend of the publishing house "rules" at the time, or what they decided would be as consistent as possible. (Sometimes, I have thought that the typesetter at the publishing house was a 2nd trumpet player that thought, “I’m going to teach this 3rd player to stop looking at my part by confusing the h- - - out of him!”)

I think one of the best arguments we trumpet players have regarding the selection of trumpet we use is found in Strauss’ revision of Berlioz’ article on the Trumpet in his treatise:

http://www.opus28.co.uk/Berlioz-Strauss.pdf

pp. 281-97 (The Trumpet, The Cornet)

On p. 282, notice Strauss’ revision (represented by the squiggly mark on the left of each paragraph). He writes:

“It is best to apply here, too, Wagner's method of writing in all keys so as to leave the trumpet part in C major as much as possible. One can then leave the choice of the most suitable key to the individual trumpet player.”

THIS IS HUGE, FRIENDS! Quote this to the next conductor that gives you grief about your choice of instrument. Go ahead! Put them in their place. You might get fired, but at least you’ll be right! Ha!

A cursory search on TH is not resulting in a quick find for previous threads along these lines. If anyone knows specific threads, please post here. I am thinking someone may have done a specific DMA major document or master’s thesis along these lines, and if anyone knows of such, please post in this thread. I plan on researching all of the Mahler symphony parts to uncover any “truths,” but Holy Week is a busy time for those of us doing church gigs…and a show!…and contracting!…and arranging for strings for Maundy Thursday! To be continued next week…unless someone has already researched all of this. Let us know.

Using the following in a google search:

site:trumpetherald.com mahler (seems to be too broad)

site:trumpetherald.com mahler symphonies

site:trumpetherald.com mahler trumpet

Ideas on what terms to employ in the TH or general Internet search?

Tpt_Guy · Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:50 am Post subject:

Interesting thought, avoiding accidentals. I just had a gander at some of the Mahler Symphonies that move so freely between F and Bb trumpet; they're littered with accidentals and are not in C major for the trumpet.

Charlie Geyer talked about Mahler's use of F trumpet in a master class he gave at University of Kentucky. Pretty interesting. The master class is in three parts and I can't recall which part it's in, so you'll have to watch the whole thing.

It's worth the watch.

Here's part one:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aUN2Xw9wceI
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dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286

I'll check out Charlie Geyer's master class. What I was pointing out was how Strauss followed the Berlioz rule of keeping it as close to the printed key of C major, but that Mahler mainly focused on keeping notes inside the staff and limiting himself to the two common orchestral trumpets, F & B-flat, of the day (or of the orchestras with which he had affiliation, which is all speculation on my part at this point, hasn't been proven and not sure it if can be). However, at a cursory glance at some of the lower trumpet parts in some of the earlier symphonies, at least, I'm seeing parts only in F with some ledger lines, where he could have had a switch to B-flat and kept more notes in the staff. Would that mean that those players would have only played the F trumpet and that he (or the typesetter for the publishing house) was catering to the fact? Maybe only the top players in these orchestras used the B-flat. It would be interesting to know. I know there are passages that moved quickly from printed F to B-flat, and vice versa, but that research will be for next week. Meanwhile, perhaps someone reading this will have a quick and accurate recollection of passages like that. Or not...

Tpt_Guy · Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:53 am Post subject:

Ah, ok. I missed that.

Geyer mentions that Mahler preferred the sound of the F trumpet over that of the higher-pitched B flat instruments. I dare not type any more about it because I'll be paraphrasing and likely to not get it right. Been a while since I watched the video.

But the idea about ledger lines makes sense. I've played some pieces in F that had ridiculous ledger lines below the staff and hard to read.
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Heim · Veteran Member Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 181

O00Joe · Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:44 am Post subject:

I gotta say that's a fantastic master class by the way. Thanks for sharing.
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mikatpt · Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:32 pm Post subject:

haven't seen the masterclass so I might be rehashing material but:

in essence, yes - Mr Geyer's supposition is that Mahler preferred the sound of the larger F trumpet. the idea is that orchestras back then were much smaller and less loud, and the larger instruments provided an exciting and vibrant timbre without overpowering the orchestra. proof of concept: check out deutsch kammerphilharmonie beethoven 5 or 7(!!) (or any period orchestras) and note the timbre of the trumpets and size of the orchestra.

so hypothetically speaking, the timbre of B flat trumpets at that dynamic just didn't really cut it for mahler, and he notated for F trumpet accordingly. this is also why, says Mr Geyer, that there is a low concert E flat in the opening solo of the 5th symphony even though it's written in B flat transposition - it's an acknowledgement that everyone's going to play that solo on a smaller trumpet for ease and chromaticism... but also a complaint that it would sound better on a natural trumpet, even if it isn't entirely possible.

not sure if there's any kind of literature reinforcing the conjecture, but I think it's not a bad one! the above is approximately what he would say though, if asked. now if you REALLY want to have fun though, ask him what he thinks about the bass trombone....

M

deleted_user_da44b37 · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

But Beethoven is not Mahler. In the first Performance of Mahler 8(Symphony of 1000) the size of the orchestra was 150..

[quote="mikatpt"]haven't seen the masterclass so I might be rehashing material but:

in essence, yes - Mr Geyer's supposition is that Mahler preferred the sound of the larger F trumpet. the idea is that orchestras back then were much smaller and less loud, and the larger instruments provided an exciting and vibrant timbre without overpowering the orchestra. proof of concept: check out deutsch kammerphilharmonie beethoven 5 or 7(!!) (or any period orchestras) and note the timbre of the trumpets and size of the orchestra.

so hypothetically speaking, the timbre of B flat trumpets at that dynamic just didn't really cut it for mahler, and he notated for F trumpet accordingly. this is also why, says Mr Geyer, that there is a low concert E flat in the opening solo of the 5th symphony even though it's written in B flat transposition - it's an acknowledgement that everyone's going to play that solo on a smaller trumpet for ease and chromaticism... but also a complaint that it would sound better on a natural trumpet, even if it isn't entirely possible.

not sure if there's any kind of literature reinforcing the conjecture, but I think it's not a bad one! the above is approximately what he would say though, if asked. now if you REALLY want to have fun though, ask him what he thinks about the bass trombone....

M[/quote]

hup_d_dup · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:28 am Post subject:

tanda · Veteran Member Joined: 19 Jan 2004 Posts: 177

oxleyk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180

mikatpt · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:21 am Post subject:

I think the idea was that it was more of a nostalgic kind of thing than a literal one - notating for the instrument to indicate the sound he was looking for. at that point I'm pretty sure he knew people weren't going to play big trumpets on his music.

in any case it is definitely just conjecture!

M

MalinTrumpet · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:08 am Post subject: Question

Anyone have any idea why so many American orchestras use piston trumpets for Mahler and rotaries for Bruckner?

LCM

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286

Andy Del · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:32 am Post subject:

In Mahler's day, the trumpets he heard as director of the staadt oper were piston Bb and C. Other German cities which performed his works certainly used rotary instruments. I'm not aware of any commentary that he had stated a preference for either. Just as interesting is that in Rossini's time, Italians were paying on rotary instruments, so if you want to be more authentic...

Also, the notion that rotary trumpet somehow fulfil Beethoven and Brahms' intentions is rather weird. They wrote for nature trumpets - at least they were valveless - so insisting on one or the other valve doesn't make sense. Insisting on valveless trumpets does...

At the end of the day, top level players will sound like themselves. The decision to use a rotary or piston will lend a rather subtle difference, not the amazing change we all expect. I have had conductors umm and ahh and not really be bothered, as long as we are in time, in tune, balance and play MUSICALLY. (Even had one not notice we were using natural trumpets in the Mozart requiem!) (He did notice in the next work when opheclides came out!)

cheers

Andy
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jaysonr · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:21 pm Post subject:

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286

johntpt · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:58 am Post subject:

In terms of the choice of pistons or rotaries for certain composers, it has less to do with historical accuracy than orchestral blend. Rotaries are often considered to have a sound that fits in to the orchestral texture rather than stick out, which is more fitting for Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Schubert, Brahms,maybe Wagner, and to some extent Bruckner, than it is for Mahler and Strauss, whose trumpet parts tend to be more soloistic in nature.

JU

Jay Lichtmann · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:48 pm Post subject:

Does anyone know of a principal trumpeter in an AMERICAN orchestra that has used a rotary trumpet in a performance of Mahler's 5th? Or the 2nd, 3rd, 6th or 7th?

My guess is no. If I am correct I have my own theories on this.
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