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cheiden
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 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| jazzjezz wrote: | | kalijah wrote: | jazzjezz wrote: | Quote: | | it has been proven that you don’t even need to move air through the horn, you only need to cause the air in the horn to vibrate. |
Well..., not exactly.
| Quote: | | No net air flow is required to produce a sound. |
In the case of playing the trumpet, net air flow is absolutely required. |
There was an article published in the ITG Journal in May ‘99 by Richard Smith titled “Exciting Your Instrument” which described an experiment where a brass instrument (a trombone in this case) was played with a modified mouthpiece.
The mouthpiece backbore was decoupled from the cup by a flexible non-permeable membrane. It was vented out of the side of the cup. The instrument could still be played with no net flow of air.....
The article is available on the Smith Watkins website. |
Here are two relevant videos.
https://youtu.be/WZvDvuxjHvU
https://youtu.be/0vUX_hX-fZs
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EBjazz
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jazzjezz
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| brassmusician wrote: | | I think there is a confusion of terminology around net air flow here. We all agree air must pass through the lips to make a sound. In the Smith article they make the air exit before it enters the trumpet, that is all. The air that passes the lip must escape the system somehow, or it backs up and stops. Put a sock in your trumpet and see what happens. |
So to try and clear up the confusion:-
Air is needed to aid/ cause the lip vibration.
Vibration is needed to generate a noise from the trumpet.
If the mouthpiece is vented and a diaphragm is used to propagate the vibration into the trumpet there is no net air flow through the trumpet.
If no net air flow is required to make sounds emanate from a trumpet, the bore size of the instrument is unlikely to be particularly relevant in terms of the pressure drop required to make the compressible fluid (moist air) flow through the instrument.
Differences in perception between instruments of varied bore sizes is more likely to be caused by the other design features and manufacturing imperfections than by the nominal bore size.
My take is that we shouldn't get hung up about bore size - rely on experiencing the horn and listening to the sound. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:47 am Post subject: |
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It is thou who art confused.
You don't understand the sysyem. You don't have a correct qualitative understanding of what acoustic impedance is and how bore size affects such. You also don't understand the power requirement of air flow (and pressure) INTO the instrument that is essential for sound.
And you are not alone. |
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jazzjezz
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | It is thou who art confused.
You don't understand the sysyem. You don't have a correct qualitative understanding of what acoustic impedance is and how bore size affects such. You also don't understand the power requirement of air flow (and pressure) INTO the instrument that is essential for sound.
And you are not alone. |
Being quite prepared to admit that I am normally wrong about most things, and that my ignorance of acoustic impedance outweighs my knowledge of the subject is beyond doubt.
However which bit of the experimental and video evidence demonstrating sound being able to be produced from a brass instrument with no air-flow through the instrument do you take issue with? |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| It is not the experimental results that I question. It is the prevailing interpretation and conclusion that is misunderstood. While the net air flow into the instrument is vented, the air flow into the mouthpiece is required. Pressure that is pushing the flow is also required. One may "feel" the flow is steady but in fact it is a series of pulses with a net amount of flow for each pulse. If you were indeed able to get a lips to vibrate in the same way but without the pulses of air do you think there would be any sound? |
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random_abstract
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:29 am Post subject: |
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OP here. I don't know about the experimental horn in the video, but my trumpet only works if you blow air through it.
So many dismissive, cynical opinions on this thread. There is most definitely a difference in impedance (call it "resistance" or whatever) between most any ML bore and XL bore trumpet. Also between different mouthpiece diameters, throat sizes, backbore sizes, putting a mute in the bell, a sock in the bell, failing to clean the pizza gunk out of your leadpipe, or whatever.
Any factor that alters the resistance/impedance/resonance of an instrument is a variable that will affect the perceived response of the instrument, the efficiency of vibration of the lips, and the quality of the resultant sound to some degree. Right? So it seems natural that one's approach to playing the instrument would have to adapt to these variables as well.
I was simply asking the advice of pro players who have experience moving to large bore horns. |
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jazzjezz
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:42 am Post subject: |
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I would expect there to be no sound if you could make your lips vibrate without imparting a corresponding vibration in the air in the mouthpiece.
What I am envisaging however is that the net flow of air that is required to make the lips vibrate and impart a pressure oscillation is not required to flow through the whole instrument. It needs to flow through the lips to cause the vibration and pulsation, but can be vented to atmosphere before entering the instrument itself, as demonstrated by using a vented mouthpiece isolated from the instrument by a diaphragm. In this case the vibration is passed into the instrument but no net airflow passes through. |
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theslawdawg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| random_abstract wrote: | OP here. I don't know about the experimental horn in the video, but my trumpet only works if you blow air through it.
So many dismissive, cynical opinions on this thread. There is most definitely a difference in impedance (call it "resistance" or whatever) between most any ML bore and XL bore trumpet. Also between different mouthpiece diameters, throat sizes, backbore sizes, putting a mute in the bell, a sock in the bell, failing to clean the pizza gunk out of your leadpipe, or whatever.
Any factor that alters the resistance/impedance/resonance of an instrument is a variable that will affect the perceived response of the instrument, the efficiency of vibration of the lips, and the quality of the resultant sound to some degree. Right? So it seems natural that one's approach to playing the instrument would have to adapt to these variables as well.
I was simply asking the advice of pro players who have experience moving to large bore horns. |
Yes, lots of people here like to use a lot of syllables. 
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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So you have made the step to understanding that there is airflow into the instrument cup. And that is truly required. Hopefully you will see the energy (or power) requirement.
(An instrument is not truly a complete instrument without a mouthpiece.)
Each "pulse" will have air pressure no greater than the air pressure supplied by the player. And the air volume required to maintain loudness of tone during each air pulse is dependent on the impedance of the instrument. The lower the impedance the greater the air volume required during each pulse to maintain a specific loudness. Thus a greater average air flow for a steady tone is experienced by the player.
But lower impedance (such for a very large bore instrument), can adversely effect the efficiency of the player. That is why horns that are lower impedance can "feel" like more effort is required. Because it is. Even though they are seemingly easier to "blow" at. That is, they feel less resistive. |
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Irving
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Back to the garden hose analogy...I'm watering the grass, and realizing that I'm spending too much time watering because too little water is coming out of the hose. So, I get a wider hose, hook that up to the faucet, and I see that even less water is coming out. Whoops. Forgot to open up the faucet. I do that, and it seems like the same amount of water is coming out as with the first hose. So I open it up all the way. But I had to open it up at least three turns. Now I have more water coming out under more pressure.
Since I switched to a larger hose, it required more water, which was enough to create more water pressure, even though the hose was a larger " bore". It required significantly more water to create the pressure needed needed to shoot the water out of the larger hose. If I were then to go back the smaller hose ( since my dog decided to chew a hole in it) then I could closed off the water somewhat and get the same pressure coming out of the hose with less water.
Darryl? Please make the necessary corrections. This isn't taking the nozzle ( mouthpiece) into account. |
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mm55
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Opening up the faucet does not produce more pressure. Increasing the flow does not produce more pressure. Increasing the hose cross-section area does not produce more pressure.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Back to the garden hose analogy. |
Please, no.
Steady flow of water thru a hose is not quite related to the acoustic system of the resonant instrument. |
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Denny Schreffler
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Without directly addressing individual points of this many-headed thread …
• The sound wave (standing wave) does not flow thru the instrument. Think of a cork bobbing (in the same place) on a pond as ripples (waves) from a tossed pebble pass thru its position. It does not ride the first wave that reaches it like a surfboard.
• The standing wave does not look like a graph of its function or like a vibrating string – it’s a series of continuously variable compression and rarefaction segments of the air molecules that are inside the tube.
• I had not seen the video of Richard Smith but I was going to mention the fact that tone may be produced by inhaling. I used to be able to do about a half-octave scale that way but got only a couple of notes when I tried it, yesterday. Yes, I really do suck at playing the trumpet.
• Beyond altered mpcs and attempts at artificial lips, a lot of brass instrument testing has been done using electroacoustic tone generators feeding a tone spectrum (usually pink noise) into a brass instrument for analysis at and beyond the bell. Individual tones may also be induced in a brass instrument by this same technique if a specific frequency or tone is fed into the horn. No flow of air enters the instrument, just the disturbed waves of air generated by the transducer at the front end.
• When we’re playing the trumpet, the flow of air from the lungs up to the lips may be thought of as direct current (DC) – an uninterrupted flow. The lips are caused to oscillate harmonically by the flow of air between them as they are tensed and may be thought of as a valve which is converting the DC to alternating current (AC). This is where the hose pipe (with or without a nozzle) water-flow analogy breaks down in talking about bore size (or shape) because it never encounters a control oscillator (the vibrating lips) or anything analogous to the acoustic impedance of the mpc/bore/bell system.
• In practice, some (a lot or a little) of the DC air flow leaks into the AC system so there is some air flow (a lot or a little) thru the horn while the different standing waves (of different pitches) are formed.
• The idea of tanking up and moving a lot of air thru the horn has value in visualizing or conceptualizing our sound and in (some ways) causing the lips to vibrate in certain ways but it might not be as important as some of us have been taught with pedagogical concepts that have roots in prior centuries.
• As has been well stated by others in the thread, the difference among bore sizes as specified when measured at the 2nd valve is not nearly as relevant as the shape of the bore and the perturbations to smoothness and shape that are encountered in the system.
-Denny |
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khedger
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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I can't give you any acclimation tips, only share my experiences:
I spent years playing Benge MLP 3 horns. They worked well and responded well to my playing style. I wanted to try to get a bit rounder, darker sound so I picked up a Benge Claude Gordon model. The CG was really good, but I had to work a bit harder physically to play it. The killer was that I never could develop the same amount of stamina playing that horn as I was used to having.
Then I happened upon a used Flip Oakes Wild Thing. I picked this thing up and it just WORKED! Great horn, allowed me to get those rounder, darker aspects of my sound, and it didn't tire me out. I tried some other Wild Things and they were all terrible for me! Nothing like the one I had. Don't know why, but that was my experience.
I've actually not played for the past five years or so. I'm going to start playing some cornet again soon I think. |
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Denny Schreffler wrote: | Without directly addressing individual points of this many-headed thread …
• The sound wave (standing wave) does not flow thru the instrument. Think of a cork bobbing (in the same place) on a pond as ripples (waves) from a tossed pebble pass thru its position. It does not ride the first wave that reaches it like a surfboard.
• The standing wave does not look like a graph of its function or like a vibrating string – it’s a series of continuously variable compression and rarefaction segments of the air molecules that are inside the tube.
• I had not seen the video of Richard Smith but I was going to mention the fact that tone may be produced by inhaling. I used to be able to do about a half-octave scale that way but got only a couple of notes when I tried it, yesterday. Yes, I really do suck at playing the trumpet.
• Beyond altered mpcs and attempts at artificial lips, a lot of brass instrument testing has been done using electroacoustic tone generators feeding a tone spectrum (usually pink noise) into a brass instrument for analysis at and beyond the bell. Individual tones may also be induced in a brass instrument by this same technique if a specific frequency or tone is fed into the horn. No flow of air enters the instrument, just the disturbed waves of air generated by the transducer at the front end.
• When we’re playing the trumpet, the flow of air from the lungs up to the lips may be thought of as direct current (DC) – an uninterrupted flow. The lips are caused to oscillate harmonically by the flow of air between them as they are tensed and may be thought of as a valve which is converting the DC to alternating current (AC). This is where the hose pipe (with or without a nozzle) water-flow analogy breaks down in talking about bore size (or shape) because it never encounters a control oscillator (the vibrating lips) or anything analogous to the acoustic impedance of the mpc/bore/bell system.
• In practice, some (a lot or a little) of the DC air flow leaks into the AC system so there is some air flow (a lot or a little) thru the horn while the different standing waves (of different pitches) are formed.
• The idea of tanking up and moving a lot of air thru the horn has value in visualizing or conceptualizing our sound and in (some ways) causing the lips to vibrate in certain ways but it might not be as important as some of us have been taught with pedagogical concepts that have roots in prior centuries.
• As has been well stated by others in the thread, the difference among bore sizes as specified when measured at the 2nd valve is not nearly as relevant as the shape of the bore and the perturbations to smoothness and shape that are encountered in the system.
-Denny |
Good post.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When we’re playing the trumpet, the flow of air from the lungs up to the lips may be thought of as direct current (DC) – an uninterrupted flow. |
The air "pressure" from the lungs is continuous. The flow "feels" continuous but at the aperture the air flow "pulses" into the mp cup. The flow (and the velocity of flow) through the aperture varies in the pulsation cycle from a maximum to almost zero.
The flow that we "feel" is an average between the maximum pulse flow and the minimum.
| Quote: | | No flow of air enters the instrument, just the disturbed waves of air generated by the transducer at the front end. |
This is a misleading conclusion. You can not create the standing wave without power applied. If there is no flow, there is no power.
In the case of a symmetrical electromechanically induced source, there is indeed flow. Not accumulative flow, but alternating flow. "In-flow" for 1/2 cycle and "out-flow" for 1/2 cycle. This yields an RMS value of flow depending on the acoustic impedance. (RMS is "root mean square", which is a time-averaging of a "cycling" variable)
The RMS flow value for a symmetrical AC source would be comparable to the average flow for a conventionally played note at the same loudness.
You can not have sound power without air power. Loudness of tone varies with air power applied.
Power = pressure x flow
, whether that flow is AC (RMS flow) or offset AC ("pulsed" flow)
if there is no flow there is no power, and there is no sound. |
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JoeLoeffler
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Good posts!
As far as I can tell, the vented mouthpiece study was simply converting the “pulsed flow” in the body/lips/cup system to a RMS flow to feed the standing wave in the instrument through the membrane in the mouthpiece... |
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Denny Schreffler
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | When we’re playing the trumpet, the flow of air from the lungs up to the lips may be thought of as direct current (DC) – an uninterrupted flow. |
The air "pressure" from the lungs is continuous. The flow "feels" continuous but at the aperture the air flow "pulses" into the mp cup. The flow (and the velocity of flow) through the aperture varies in the pulsation cycle from a maximum to almost zero.
The flow that we "feel" is an average between the maximum pulse flow and the minimum.
| Quote: | | No flow of air enters the instrument, just the disturbed waves of air generated by the transducer at the front end. |
This is a misleading conclusion. You can not create the standing wave without power applied. If there is no flow, there is no power.
In the case of a symmetrical electromechanically induced source, there is indeed flow. Not accumulative flow, but alternating flow. "In-flow" for 1/2 cycle and "out-flow" for 1/2 cycle. This yields an RMS value of flow depending on the acoustic impedance. (RMS is "root mean square", which is a time-averaging of a "cycling" variable)
The RMS flow value for a symmetrical AC source would be comparable to the average flow for a conventionally played note at the same loudness.
You can not have sound power without air power. Loudness of tone varies with air power applied.
Power = pressure x flow
, whether that flow is AC (RMS flow) or offset AC ("pulsed" flow)
if there is no flow there is no power, and there is no sound. |
• I wrote – “When we’re playing the trumpet, the flow of air from the lungs up to the lips may be thought of as direct current (DC) – an uninterrupted flow. The lips are caused to oscillate harmonically by the flow of air between them as they are tensed and may be thought of as a valve which is converting the DC to alternating current (AC). ”
Darryl wrote – “The air "pressure" from the lungs is continuous. The flow "feels" continuous but at the aperture the air flow "pulses" into the mp cup.”
Comment – The air pressure from the lungs is not static. There is a continuous, uninterrupted flow of air – up to the lips – as I stated. I stated that oscillation (vibration/pulsing) begins at the lips. Darryl’s argument that, “The flow "feels" continuous but at the aperture the air flow "pulses" into the mp cup,” seems to imply that he thinks that the entire amount of the flow of air coming from the lungs is converted into mechanical energy (the vibration of the lips) but the fact (not a conclusion, Darryl) – the fact is that part of the air from the lungs is not converted into vibration. It continues as an uninterrupted flow of smooth, steady air into the mpc/horn system. This is the case that I made in my original post by writing that there is some leakage of the DC flow from the lungs into the AC side of the system.
_____________________________________________
• Darryl wrote (in an earlier post) – “Air flow (and pressure), even for an electric-speaker induced tone, is required.”
I responded in a public post – “No flow of air enters the instrument, just the disturbed waves of air generated by the transducer at the front end.”
I sent a follow-up PM to Darryl in an attempt to clarify specific points without burdening the public forum with unnecessary detail, especially as the thread had veered away from the OP’s intent. This is what I wrote about that in the PM …
There is no air that is introduced into the system where a mechanical or electro-mechanical transducer is mounted as a tone generator onto a mpc, feeding sound into a trumpet. It is air that is already in the system that falls into oscillation as a longitudinal wave of compressions and rarefactions. There is a “specific acoustic flow” (part of the Specific Acoustic Impedance equation) but there is no uninterrupted stream of air passing into and thru the tpt in this case (as there would be in normal performance).
The speaker moves forward, disturbing the air at its interface, causing an area of compression, and then moves an equal distance in the opposite direction, causing an area of rarefaction. Certain frequencies of this alternating cycle will cause standing waves to be formed in the horn with acoustic energy sent back from the bell – without any stream of air (flow) being involved.
The two types of Impedance-Measuring apparatuses that Benade shows in his famous “The Physics of Brasses” article (Scientific American, July 1973, illustrations on pp. 27 and 28, and the, Electromagnetic source for projecting waves into a test instrument, (p. 29) – and similar to what Earle Kent used at Conn from immediately after the war into the ‘60s – do not pump a steady stream (a flow) of air into the instrument but use the oscillatory movement of air which is already in the system.
If we’re looking at the Acoustic Impedance formula and the Specific Acoustic Impedance formula (which is more applicable to horns), we need to differentiate between the steady flow of the air thru the aperture (U [uppercase] in the Acoustic impedance formula) and the acoustic flow (u [lowercase] in the Specific Acoustic impedance formula). In poking around on the internet just now, I see a factor that the investigators of a particular study are calling, “The Sweeping Flow” = “The acoustic flow caused by the outward motion of the lips per se is an important variable.” http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/Trombone1.pdf – p. 1198. This is new to me but it makes sense.
It took a while to find an animated simulation that demonstrates air particle movement in an acoustic standing wave but this shows it nicely – “The solution: an animation to visualize particle motion and pressure for longitudinal sound waves,” which is the second section on this page…
http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/demos/standingwaves/standingwaves.html
For a mechanically induced standing wave, there is no flow of air thru the pipe. The air particles – which were already in the pipe – move back and forth around the displacement nodes formed by the standing wave of whatever pitch is being sounded.
There is an “acoustic flow” of sound energy that is propagated from the bell of the trumpet. Perhaps there is misunderstanding of the difference between “air flow” and “acoustic flow.”
Sorry for the long and laborious post. I tried to handle it behind the scenes but it popped back, publicly.
-Denny |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:33 am Post subject: |
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I have an Eclipse enigma in .460 with a silver bell, it is an extremely resonant trumpet. It has 7 different leadpipe ranging from very tight to very very open. The .460 bore at the 2nd slide is his standard bore as I believe most blocks are these days. The different leadpipe can vary the sound somewhat accentuating the core or brightening the overtones. The size of the leadpipe does to me make a difference inn core of the tones at different ranges and is also more comfortable to play if changing to different ranges in play. The tightest of the leadpipe is excellent if you want to play above the staff primarily and gives better endurance but is not as rich below the staff. The big pipes sound huge below c but I dont have much push above hi c. The middle 3 pipes are best overall and the first pipe above middle gives best overall sound and flexibility. I do however find it good to move around with the pipes as I find when I return to my favorite it seems just right. The big pipes I equate to big bore have big sound to a point but become consistently harder to play above hi c, the smaller moves the air but I also get tired of pushing the horn so much. My opinion is that everyone has a blend that’s just right for them. The changeable leadpipe system is a good way to find out even if just to find the mix then get a fixed system that suits your needs.
Rod |
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