Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:34 pm Post subject: I need help to recovery from pressure playing :(
I will try to make this as objective as possible.
I started learning the trumpet a year and a half ago, my grandpa was my teacher. At onde point, when i was trying to go up in the scale, i somehow started using pressure to play the higher notes(the strong arm way). It went unnoticed, because my grandpa is a really impatient man, he didn't gave me the proper atention when i was practicing. I spent more than a year playing only using pressure, i had so many problems because of that and didn't know why at the time. While reading the book "Prelude to brass playing" i noticed the existence of pressure playing and realized that i was playing like that for more than a year! I went i decided to change that. I started playing without pressure and guess what... I couldn't even reach the middle C! I felt terrible, it's like i didn't have an embouchure at all! I kept practicing, my uncle who is a trumpet player tried a lot to help me, but i still couldn't get even the notes in the middle register. It has been almost two months since then, i practice EVERY SINGLE DAY with almost no results. I can really barely play the middle C and i haven't found a confortable mouthpiece positioning at all! I play long tones, i practice slurs, i try to play the exercises on the method books that i have and still, very little to zero improvement. I don't have a single person that is willing to help me, i don't personally know any trumpet players besides my grandpa and uncle, i don't have neither the money or time for a private teacher. I have only method books and of course, my trumpet. What keeps me from giving up is my love for the trumpet and music, i want to play music! The only instrument that i truly identify myself is the trumpet and i am extremely grateful for even having one. So i beg you of this forum, if you know anything that could help me find and develop my embouchure again, please help me.[/b]
Are you trying to play with absolutely no pressure? If so, this is a mistake. Some pressure is required to make a good seal and a degree of pressure is necessary to ascend in range. In Dave Hickman's 'Trumpet Pedagogy' he describes a study from the 1970's which demonstrated that professional and amateurs both use pressure to play, the difference being that professionals have a stronger embouchure 'set' (muscular condition) which resists the pressure meaning it is not as detrimental to endurance (cutting off circulation etc). So expect to use 'some' pressure when you ascend in range.
The trick is to get the embouchure focusing forward into the mouthpiece, rather than stretching or thinning (as in smiling) when you ascend. Some exercises such as note bending and mouthpiece buzzing, may help you with this. Good luck. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL
another useful exercise to pull the chops toward the middle is the Caruso Six notes www.markusstockhausen.de/file_download/18/ _________________ Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL
Joined: 21 Jan 2015 Posts: 145 Location: Cincinnati
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:05 am Post subject:
Hello,
Developing an efficient embouchure takes patience and discipline. Unfortunately, there are no short cuts. You will find many different books with great information about how to create a solid foundation. In my opinion, the book you use is less important than the approach with air. Almost any book can be useful, if you are using your air efficiently.
I recommend practicing taking full breaths and exhaling a focused stream of wind. Do this without the mouthpiece or horn. If you can learn to do this without any added force or pushing of the breath, then you're onto something. The next step is to be able to mimic this release of the wind through the mouthpiece or horn. Allow the lips to vibrate freely on an easy note. Listen for a ringing sound.
Learning to start each practice session with this amount of ease will provide tremendous benefit in the long run. You may have to accept the fact that your range will be limited for awhile. Don't force the breath to play higher. Wait until you can do it with ease.
As always, the best bet is finding an excellent teacher. Even one lesson every couple of months with a professional would be helpful.
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: Re: I need help to recovery from pressure playing :(
Tiago Markus wrote:
I started learning the trumpet a year and a half ago, my grandpa was my teacher. At onde point, when i was trying to go up in the scale, i somehow started using pressure to play the higher notes(the strong arm way)... I decided to change that. I started playing without pressure and guess what... I couldn't even reach the middle C!... It has been almost two months since then, i practice EVERY SINGLE DAY with almost no results. I can really barely play the middle C and i haven't found a confortable mouthpiece positioning at all!... So i beg you of this forum, if you know anything that could help me find and develop my embouchure again, please help me.
Without observing you play, I can only guess what's going on. But your story has a few important clues.
You haven't been playing very long. You say your grandfather is impatient. You should ask yourself whether you've been trying to do too much, too fast. Are you trying to play as well as he does as quickly as possible? If the answer is "yes," then you need to realize that you're just a beginner. You aren't your grandfather, or your uncle.
Give yourself permission to be a beginner. Practice easier things that are appropriate for a beginner. Get plenty of rest breaks during your practice sessions, and don't try to keep playing past the point of exhaustion. Allow yourself time to develop.
I think you're going to have to work on easier material that's appropriate for your level, pace yourself, and allow plenty of time for rest and recovery before you'll start to see progress again. Good luck! _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Yeah Dave, i'm aware there is no shortcuts for a good embouchure. I wish i knew that when i started playing tho. The advice you gave is really interesting, because when i played with too much pressure my embouchure was so weak that if i took a breath i couldn't play anything after. So breath control is one of the things that i didn't develop tio much, like my embouchure. I will definitely give a try to that exercises that you mentioned.
About getting a teacher, it's Impossible for me right now because i can't spend money on that at the moment. I just really expect to someday personally meet other wind instrument players to share thoughts and experiences, because i really don't have anyone to talk about trumpet besides my grandpa and uncle.
Thank you so much for the reply Dave.
Yeah dstdenis, you guys really can't give me especific advice without seeing me play. That's alright, i'm looking for general advice.
About what you said... That's completely true. My grandfather is a really kind man and an excelent trumpet player with a VERY strong embouchure. However he is a impatient person and right now he is 81 years old, so i can't really blame him. I'm grateful that he even tried to teach me, he even gave me his best horn and mouthpiece. But exactly like you said, i tried to play as well as him too fast and that did create bad habits in my playing(the worst of them being the excessive use of mouthpiece pressure).
You're right, i really did let the frustration get over my head the last few months. But i have to be more patient if ever want to get back to playing as good as before.
Thank you , you helped me feel more comfortable about the situation.
Your first experiences on trumpet remind me of my trumpet pupils. When they start out, they can't figure out why they can't play high straight away because of course on many instruments you can. One particular student I have this year, comes with a love of jazz and Louis Armstrong and simply can't wait to start playing like him but does not have the range, only barely making it to C in the staff. So naturally he is doing everything he can to force his range. First it was pressure, then after a lesson in which I explained it would help to push more air as he went higher, it became all about blowing like crazy and he is massively over doing that. I think I have now persuaded him that it is going to take a lot of patient embouchure development to build his range and he should be thinking in terms of several years. I think most of my beginner students take two years to reach the top of the stave with any sort of decent sound, although they are hardly diligent about practicing.
Remember to play at the top of your range everyday. If you can get 4th line D then play many of them in a row (without straining or hurting yourself). Gradually increase the number of D's you can play each day over a week or two. Then move to Eflat and so on. If your chops get stiff and tired you need to have an easy day or a day off. Playing a lot of low notes will relax your chops and make them feel better after the high note efforts. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL
Louis was the very first trumpet player i discovered after i started playing, but after that i fell in love with Rafael Mendez' records hahaha
But when my grandpa first showed me the trumpet, I didn't even know what sound it had at all. I never really had contact with the instrument because my grandpa rarely played it at the time. I spent like a week buzzing only the low C for hours and still it was probably the most fun i had with a instrument, it was like instant love. Then my grandpa wanted me to go up in the scale and i barely got to the F, so he said for me to blow stronger and i did, i think that's when i started playing with too much pressure. I just pressed the trumpet in my face so hard that it forced my lips to vibrate, that's how ended up like this.
My grandpa isn't really good as a teacher, but as a player he will always be an inspiration. His crazy warmup and fluffy sound will forever be stuck in my head haha He recently started playing solos again at the church, being 81 years old.
I will gladly take tour advice brassmusician, thank you very much. Also good luck for both you and your pupil, my best wishes.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:24 pm Post subject:
All playing requires some pressure. Playing higher and louder typically requires somewhat more pressure. I think it becomes a problem when adding pressure is a disproportionally large part of how you get high and/or loud. There are a number other adjustments that facilitate range/volume. Instead of trying to eliminate pressure, try focusing on other skills...
- lip compression
- lip movement
- pivot
- jaw movement
- tongue movement
- corners
- chin
I'm not saying that everybody benefits from all of these but most players use some combination of some of these.
AFWIW, mouthpiece buzzing done properly can help break the habit of excess pressure. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: I need help to recovery from pressure playing :(
Tiago Markus wrote:
I will try to make this as objective as possible.
I started learning the trumpet a year and a half ago, my grandpa was my teacher. At onde point, when i was trying to go up in the scale, i somehow started using pressure to play the higher notes(the strong arm way). It went unnoticed, because my grandpa is a really impatient man, he didn't gave me the proper atention when i was practicing. I spent more than a year playing only using pressure, i had so many problems because of that and didn't know why at the time. While reading the book "Prelude to brass playing" i noticed the existence of pressure playing and realized that i was playing like that for more than a year! I went i decided to change that. I started playing without pressure and guess what... I couldn't even reach the middle C! I felt terrible, it's like i didn't have an embouchure at all! I kept practicing, my uncle who is a trumpet player tried a lot to help me, but i still couldn't get even the notes in the middle register. It has been almost two months since then, i practice EVERY SINGLE DAY with almost no results. I can really barely play the middle C and i haven't found a confortable mouthpiece positioning at all! I play long tones, i practice slurs, i try to play the exercises on the method books that i have and still, very little to zero improvement. I don't have a single person that is willing to help me, i don't personally know any trumpet players besides my grandpa and uncle, i don't have neither the money or time for a private teacher. I have only method books and of course, my trumpet. What keeps me from giving up is my love for the trumpet and music, i want to play music! The only instrument that i truly identify myself is the trumpet and i am extremely grateful for even having one. So i beg you of this forum, if you know anything that could help me find and develop my embouchure again, please help me.[/b]
Check Out Mike Sailors posts about pressure, he doesn't post here anymore, but you can still find his stuff, it changed my playing for the better, also check out any Bill adam forum about lead pipe vibration, look at youtube and within trumpetherald.
this is not as hard as it seems. use your mind and your air and it will come.
best of luck,
regards,
tom
ps: ed kennedy gave you the link to a leadpipe buzzing video, its good stuff !!
Practice buzzing the lips without the mouthpiece or trumpet.
Start with whatever note you can, then try and make a higher buzz. You may need to think of pulling your lips in towards your teeth a little to get a buzz that isn't low.
Every day for the next month, spend a few minutes (five minutes or less) trying to buzz the highest note you can. Whatever note that is, hold it long and steady, until you run out of air. Rest a couple of minutes, then do the same thing again. Then rest. Etc Just do it every so often throughout the day.
A low buzz (farting noise) is not what we want. You're aiming to sound more like an angry fly.
It's an exercise only. It does not feel the same when you play. Don't buzz within about an hour before you start playing the trumpet.
After about a month of this, you can start buzzing just as above, but then start moving the mouthpiece onto the lips while buzzing, trying to get a seamless movement from lip buzzing to mouthpiece buzzing.
Again, do this for a few weeks, but don't try and apply it to the trumpet or you'll just confuse yourself. It's an exercise only, to get the right muscles working.
Once you're there, if you still need help, send me a message and I'll give you a free lesson on skype to work out what's going wrong.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:29 am Post subject:
For me free buzzing such a regimen just adds tension.
I found the Schlossberg "West Coast studio guys" regime much more helpful.
Although I've got to say the obvious, if you're doing it wrong to begin with, exercises don't have a magic bullet, in and of themselves. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
I do free buzz sometimes, but for me at least, it doesn't help at all.
I was indeed doing something wrong. The Caruso exercises are helping me a lot with that, i am confident now that my mouthpiece pressure and positioning are on point now. There has been improvement. Because of that, i played up to the third space E in a exercise in my book. That is a GREAT achievement for me that wasn't being able to play even the middle C. That wasn't all, the advices on this topic also helped to put me on the right track again after so much time. Thank you guys.
The point of buzzing for someone like you is to add the necessary stability and strength to the embouchure. Some tension and strength is needed to play correctly. You have to be buzzing above G in the staff to see any benefits from it. The higher you buzz, the more beets you will find.
A lot of people don't need it, even beginners, if they start right. But if you have bad habits, and have never got the basic formation right, it's very efficient so long as you work on buzzing as high as you can, and aiming for higher every day.
If you're a well developed player and you start adding buzzing, of course it's going to add tension to your playing. Your playing is already calibrated and adding tension is bad. If you're a beginner with an embouchure problem then chances are you need a way of reinforcing approximately the right embouchure formation. Buzzing the lips does that. The mouthpiece doesn't. You can buzz the mouthpiece way wrong. Same with the leadpipe, believe it or not. It works great if you already have a basically correct embouchure, but then, everything works if your embouchure is basically correct.
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