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Double pedals, now I get it


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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:45 pm    Post subject: Double pedals, now I get it Reply with quote

Up til now I haven't really appreciated the role of double pedals. I know Callet and Bahb are big on them but to be honest they don't really explain the reason - although if you listen closely they are actually slotting these notes.

When I was playing double pedals before, they were not slotting. They were just low rumbles and I did not see the point. That puzzled me but it was about 10th on the priority list of what's wrong with my playing

Anyway, as I have posted elsewhere, I am finding the transition to TCE to be slow and steady rather than one AHA! moment. So I was messing around with the pedals the other day trying to get them to slot and found they did start to slightly. It required my embouchure (including tongue) to relax forward into the cup - at some point a "tunnel" formed between tongue and top lip and I was slotting the double pedals down to F#. This kind of happened spontaneously and I feel the trumpet pulling my lips into the cup (or into the correct shape) when it's working.

OK! So this is what the double pedals are for! Now bringing that feeling back to the normal register resulted in much less resistance and air pressure needed. I can't hold it very long so I go back to the double pedals and find the tunnel again. Anyway, just making a bit of progress and wanted to share
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CRJAZZMAN
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats! We need a "like" button on here!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been working on TCE lately. I had taken a few lessons with Bob Civiletti some years back. I know his approach is a bit different than Jerome's but it seems that they are pretty close in theory.
After some issues with Melanoma while studying with Bob I stopped playing and for various reasons I never picked it up again until last month. I was off the horn for 7 years.
I had an aha moment yesterday where the damn thing clicked. I can't play that way for long as my tongue just gives out. I have the time to space out practice sessions throughout the day since I retired.
The notes in my low and mid registers just popped. The sound was centered and full with very little effort lip wise. It felt strange, almost like it was someone elses lips. I was also able to play over high c with very little effort. The registers are not fully connected yet. I have to get going on the pedals as well.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:08 am    Post subject: Re: Double pedals, now I get it Reply with quote

epoustoufle wrote:
Up til now I haven't really appreciated the role of double pedals. I know Callet and Bahb are big on them but to be honest they don't really explain the reason - although if you listen closely they are actually slotting these notes.

When I was playing double pedals before, they were not slotting. They were just low rumbles and I did not see the point. That puzzled me but it was about 10th on the priority list of what's wrong with my playing

Anyway, as I have posted elsewhere, I am finding the transition to TCE to be slow and steady rather than one AHA! moment. So I was messing around with the pedals the other day trying to get them to slot and found they did start to slightly. It required my embouchure (including tongue) to relax forward into the cup - at some point a "tunnel" formed between tongue and top lip and I was slotting the double pedals down to F#. This kind of happened spontaneously and I feel the trumpet pulling my lips into the cup (or into the correct shape) when it's working.

OK! So this is what the double pedals are for! Now bringing that feeling back to the normal register resulted in much less resistance and air pressure needed. I can't hold it very long so I go back to the double pedals and find the tunnel again. Anyway, just making a bit of progress and wanted to share


Congrats! This I write also because same thing happened to me when I was advised by mr Smiley, the inventor of BE - to put top lip further into the mouthpiece - in order to make these (double) pedals more focused.
Yes! They were. And then I found having more top lip a bit further down than before made a significant contribution to range, stability, accuracy and - very important - to my endurance which was not at all bad prior to this.
Takes a while to settle down but what a difference!
So carry on - you will get rewarded!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad the double pedals are working and doing good things for you, but note that they cannot "slot". The Pedal C is the lowest note that can "slot" in the open valve position on a trumpet, as it is the fundamental tone in the harmonic series. And then going down through the seven valve combinations, the Pedal Gb fingered with all three valves is the absolute lowest slotting note on a trumpet. If that Gb is fingered with the 2nd valve (which admittedly makes it easier to play in tune) then it is no longer slotting. All notes below that (from Double Pedal F downward) are not part of the harmonic series and are not slottable (I think I just made that word up).

I think perhaps what you are feeling is that you have found the knack of how to play the double pedals with a good, relaxed embouchure and you are getting a nice full sound with them. Again, congratulations on your success.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Double pedals, now I get it Reply with quote

epoustoufle wrote:
Up til now I haven't really appreciated the role of double pedals. I know Callet and Bahb are big on them but to be honest they don't really explain the reason - although if you listen closely they are actually slotting these notes.

When I was playing double pedals before, they were not slotting. They were just low rumbles and I did not see the point. That puzzled me but it was about 10th on the priority list of what's wrong with my playing

Anyway, as I have posted elsewhere, I am finding the transition to TCE to be slow and steady rather than one AHA! moment. So I was messing around with the pedals the other day trying to get them to slot and found they did start to slightly. It required my embouchure (including tongue) to relax forward into the cup - at some point a "tunnel" formed between tongue and top lip and I was slotting the double pedals down to F#. This kind of happened spontaneously and I feel the trumpet pulling my lips into the cup (or into the correct shape) when it's working.

OK! So this is what the double pedals are for! Now bringing that feeling back to the normal register resulted in much less resistance and air pressure needed. I can't hold it very long so I go back to the double pedals and find the tunnel again. Anyway, just making a bit of progress and wanted to share


Hi epoustoufle. If you had questions about this then you should have gotten in touch with me. I have a blog post on my primary website and an ebook for sale on this exact topic (the ebook has explanations and photographs, and then 3 sets of exercises for guiding you through development of this technique). There is a page on my second website and a number of YouTube videos both explaining and demonstrating the double pedal notes. On top of that I'm always happy to respond to emails about it.

Here are some links so that you don't need to search about:
https://trumpetpla.net/2016/06/08/einsetzen-ansetzen/
http://tonguecontrolled.info/index.php/what-is-tce/einsetzenansetzen/

I think that Bahb does actually explain pretty well on his YouTube video titled "How to practice" about how playing double pedals in the einsetzen position trains the obicularis oris. As you now seem to have discovered you need to learn to unroll both the top an bottom lip for this to be effective. When you get the "knack", as John says, these notes do lock into place. You can definitely hear the difference when it's done properly.

The reason that Jerry doesn't go into a lot of detail about the double pedals is because it comes from the things that he used to teach in the 1970s and he mostly sees it as obsolete. In those days he talked about maintaining the unfurled top lip as you slide up into the normal trumpet playing position. This movement from einsetzen to ansetzen sets the lips with a small aperture that is then controlled by compression of air. As the lips are unfurled they cannot clamp shut in the high register, as Lynn Nicholson explains in his video "Got High Notes".
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Forte
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
I'm glad the double pedals are working and doing good things for you, but note that they cannot "slot". The Pedal C is the lowest note that can "slot" in the open valve position on a trumpet, as it is the fundamental tone in the harmonic series. And then going down through the seven valve combinations, the Pedal Gb fingered with all three valves is the absolute lowest slotting note on a trumpet. If that Gb is fingered with the 2nd valve (which admittedly makes it easier to play in tune) then it is no longer slotting. All notes below that (from Double Pedal F downward) are not part of the harmonic series and are not slottable (I think I just made that word up).

I think perhaps what you are feeling is that you have found the knack of how to play the double pedals with a good, relaxed embouchure and you are getting a nice full sound with them. Again, congratulations on your success.

Best wishes,

John Mohan


The double pedals can certainly slot when using the tongue per Callet's embouchure.

I've heard Jerome slot these notes in person--as well as triple tongue them.

Indeed, I've heard him triple tongue the double pedal range while lip buzzing.

The idea that double pedals "cannot slot" is a canard.

Thanks,
Robert
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forte wrote:

The idea that double pedals "cannot slot" is a canard.



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forte wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
I'm glad the double pedals are working and doing good things for you, but note that they cannot "slot". The Pedal C is the lowest note that can "slot" in the open valve position on a trumpet, as it is the fundamental tone in the harmonic series. And then going down through the seven valve combinations, the Pedal Gb fingered with all three valves is the absolute lowest slotting note on a trumpet. If that Gb is fingered with the 2nd valve (which admittedly makes it easier to play in tune) then it is no longer slotting. All notes below that (from Double Pedal F downward) are not part of the harmonic series and are not slottable (I think I just made that word up).

I think perhaps what you are feeling is that you have found the knack of how to play the double pedals with a good, relaxed embouchure and you are getting a nice full sound with them. Again, congratulations on your success.

Best wishes,

John Mohan


The double pedals can certainly slot when using the tongue per Callet's embouchure.

I've heard Jerome slot these notes in person--as well as triple tongue them.

Indeed, I've heard him triple tongue the double pedal range while lip buzzing.

The idea that double pedals "cannot slot" is a canard.

Thanks,
Robert


Hi Robert,

Perhaps we are using the word "slot" in different ways.

If you define "slot" as to mean getting a good, solid sound, then sure, they can be "slotted".

But if you define "slot" to mean to click into a particular harmonic tone in the harmonic series (as I think most people define the the term), then unless Newtonian Physics has changed, no, the Double Pedals cannot be slotted. When a trumpet is in the open position (no valves pressed down), the fundamental tone in its harmonic series is the Pedal C (Concert Bb). The second harmonic tone (the next higher tone) in the series is the low C, one octave above the Pedal C. And then the 3rd harmonic is middle G, etc., leading up through the pitches that "slot" (middle C, E above it, G on top the staff, Bb, High C, High D and so on through the higher harmonics). Going down chromatically through the seven valve positions shifts the series downward chromatically, but even with all three valves pushed down, the fundamental tone in the harmonic series becomes the Pedal Gb below Pedal C.

There are no tones below the fundamental tone in the harmonic series. When we play a double pedal note, while yes, we can with practice make the notes sound very solid and hold the tone without wavering, we can also siren up and down without any discernible "jump" or click" to the next higher or lower double pedal note. And this actually provides one of the benefits to practicing these notes - when one learns to sustain a double pedal note and keep the pitch rock solid, one gains more control over the instrument and it become that much easier to hold notes in the normal register perfectly in tune and without any pitch waver.

Regarding Mr. Callet being able to triple tongue in the double pedal register, I would be surprised if he couldn't. Anyone who makes regular practice of the double pedal register will develop to the point where multiple tonguing in that register is no more difficult than single tonguing.

Best wishes,

John
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't disagree with your definitions in terms of what works... but you also need to take into account that despite C3 being the fundamental it is not actually a note that is available as a resonant frequency on a trumpet in the way that it is on the flugel horn. This is because of the bore profile and size of the bell. Similarly on a Spanish corneta, which is the same length of tubing as a standard C trumpet, the C4 (that we would think of as a written middle C) is not available.

This doesn't mean one cannot play the first pedal C (I'm sure you can John) on a normal B-flat trumpet, but it's a false tone in the same way that the double pedal C is. Remember that just because a trumpet behaves like a closed-ended tube, it does not work like one. The harmonic series is "completed" by the shape of the bell.

This of course would begin to highlight the conflict between pedagogical systems. Claude Gordon taught that practicing playing C3 was beneficial, whereas Jerome Callet actively discourages it.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish there was some way I could get the first pedal "C". I can play the pedals from F down to C# but the "C" seems to go down to like a Bb or maybe even an A if I play it open. I can get a somewhat pedal "C" if played with all three valves down. Still working on the "C" though.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWallace wrote:
I wish there was some way I could get the first pedal "C". I can play the pedals from F down to C# but the "C" seems to go down to like a Bb or maybe even an A if I play it open. I can get a somewhat pedal "C" if played with all three valves down. Still working on the "C" though.


I'm sure there are people in the Claude Gordon forum who could probably teach you how to do that. In fact I expect that there are threads about it already...

As I briefly mention above, there are reasons that pedal C is not an available harmonic on a normal trumpet. The note is very easy to play on a flugel horn. Thinking about this fact may lead you to question whether or not there is an advantage to cultivating that ability.

Good luck!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
DWallace wrote:
I wish there was some way I could get the first pedal "C". I can play the pedals from F down to C# but the "C" seems to go down to like a Bb or maybe even an A if I play it open. I can get a somewhat pedal "C" if played with all three valves down. Still working on the "C" though.


I'm sure there are people in the Claude Gordon forum who could probably teach you how to do that. In fact I expect that there are threads about it already...

As I briefly mention above, there are reasons that pedal C is not an available harmonic on a normal trumpet. The note is very easy to play on a flugel horn. Thinking about this fact may lead you to question whether or not there is an advantage to cultivating that ability.

Good luck!


Yes, the Pedal C will be about a step to a step and a half low when slotted on a Bb Trumpet. But as Richard pointed out it does sound in tune on a Flügelhorn (and also on a Bass Trombone, French Horn or Tuba). I believe the reason has to do with the diameter of the bell taper in relation to the diameter of the rest of the horn. There's much more difference in those numbers on a Flügel, Bass Trombone, French Horn or Tuba in comparison to a Bb Trumpet or Cornet.

For the purposes of what we are striving to develop (whether one is a Callet Student or a Gordon student) I think it's more important to play that Pedal C with a good, solid, open sounding tone then to play it in tune. Eventually (as in with months if not years of practice) one can learn to pull it up into tune using their air correctly (not by over-tightening the face and lip muscles), and play it in tune with a good, solid sound. But this is not a requirement. The main thing is to get that good, relaxed, open sound.

Best wishes,

John
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
trumpetplanet wrote:
DWallace wrote:
I wish there was some way I could get the first pedal "C". I can play the pedals from F down to C# but the "C" seems to go down to like a Bb or maybe even an A if I play it open. I can get a somewhat pedal "C" if played with all three valves down. Still working on the "C" though.


I'm sure there are people in the Claude Gordon forum who could probably teach you how to do that. In fact I expect that there are threads about it already...

As I briefly mention above, there are reasons that pedal C is not an available harmonic on a normal trumpet. The note is very easy to play on a flugel horn. Thinking about this fact may lead you to question whether or not there is an advantage to cultivating that ability.

Good luck!


Yes, the Pedal C will be about a step to a step and a half low when slotted on a Bb Trumpet. But as Richard pointed out it does sound in tune on a Flügelhorn (and also on a Bass Trombone, French Horn or Tuba). I believe the reason has to do with the diameter of the bell taper in relation to the diameter of the rest of the horn. There's much more difference in those numbers on a Flügel, Bass Trombone, French Horn or Tuba in comparison to a Bb Trumpet or Cornet.

For the purposes of what we are striving to develop (whether one is a Callet Student or a Gordon student) I think it's more important to play that Pedal C with a good, solid, open sounding tone then to play it in tune. Eventually (as in with months if not years of practice) one can learn to pull it up into tune using their air correctly (not by over-tightening the face and lip muscles), and play it in tune with a good, solid sound. But this is not a requirement. The main thing is to get that good, relaxed, open sound.

Best wishes,

John


Thanks for clarifying your take on this. I think if I had guessed then I’d have definitely been wrong!!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Forte wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
I'm glad the double pedals are working and doing good things for you, but note that they cannot "slot". The Pedal C is the lowest note that can "slot" in the open valve position on a trumpet, as it is the fundamental tone in the harmonic series. And then going down through the seven valve combinations, the Pedal Gb fingered with all three valves is the absolute lowest slotting note on a trumpet. If that Gb is fingered with the 2nd valve (which admittedly makes it easier to play in tune) then it is no longer slotting. All notes below that (from Double Pedal F downward) are not part of the harmonic series and are not slottable (I think I just made that word up).

I think perhaps what you are feeling is that you have found the knack of how to play the double pedals with a good, relaxed embouchure and you are getting a nice full sound with them. Again, congratulations on your success.

Best wishes,

John Mohan


The double pedals can certainly slot when using the tongue per Callet's embouchure.

I've heard Jerome slot these notes in person--as well as triple tongue them.

Indeed, I've heard him triple tongue the double pedal range while lip buzzing.

The idea that double pedals "cannot slot" is a canard.

Thanks,
Robert


Hi Robert,

Perhaps we are using the word "slot" in different ways.

If you define "slot" as to mean getting a good, solid sound, then sure, they can be "slotted".

But if you define "slot" to mean to click into a particular harmonic tone in the harmonic series (as I think most people define the the term), then unless Newtonian Physics has changed, no, the Double Pedals cannot be slotted. When a trumpet is in the open position (no valves pressed down), the fundamental tone in its harmonic series is the Pedal C (Concert Bb). The second harmonic tone (the next higher tone) in the series is the low C, one octave above the Pedal C. And then the 3rd harmonic is middle G, etc., leading up through the pitches that "slot" (middle C, E above it, G on top the staff, Bb, High C, High D and so on through the higher harmonics). Going down chromatically through the seven valve positions shifts the series downward chromatically, but even with all three valves pushed down, the fundamental tone in the harmonic series becomes the Pedal Gb below Pedal C.

There are no tones below the fundamental tone in the harmonic series. When we play a double pedal note, while yes, we can with practice make the notes sound very solid and hold the tone without wavering, we can also siren up and down without any discernible "jump" or click" to the next higher or lower double pedal note. And this actually provides one of the benefits to practicing these notes - when one learns to sustain a double pedal note and keep the pitch rock solid, one gains more control over the instrument and it become that much easier to hold notes in the normal register perfectly in tune and without any pitch waver.

Regarding Mr. Callet being able to triple tongue in the double pedal register, I would be surprised if he couldn't. Anyone who makes regular practice of the double pedal register will develop to the point where multiple tonguing in that register is no more difficult than single tonguing.

Best wishes,

John


Hi John,

I'm using "slot" to mean click into place. The original poster described experiencing this. I have witnessed it as well. Others have corroborated it further. The fact you can't explain this with Newtonian physics is a non sequitur.

Slotting double pedals happens, regardless of your failure to explain it with science.

You have a hypothesis that double pedals cannot slot. You have based this on your understanding of a closed tube resonator. I respect this method and your hypothesis.

However, the original poster, Callet himself, and others have quasi "peer reviewed" your hypothesis and tested it - and it has failed to replicate. Don't hold on to your hypothesis when further testing refutes it. Instead, form a new one and test it.

Remember that Newtonian physics is an approximation of the world. Einstein's theory of relativity and Bohr's quantum mechanics describe the world even better--but no one has yet been able to merge the two. Maybe because both are flawed as well.

My goal isn't to persuade you because I don't think that's possible. However, I hope my posts will benefit other Callet students/practitioners and encourage them to continue to aim for what is indeed possible.

Thanks,
Robert
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I warm up with double pedal tones every day and have done for years. My familiarity with the sound and feel of the notes would make you believe that they "slot" but at this stage we're splitting hairs over semantics. There is important learning to be had here:

When playing any pedal tones the trumpet is acting as a megaphone and not a resonator. It is only from F#3 up to around G6 (depending on the shape of the bell) that a standard trumpet acts as a resonator. Below and above that pitch requires the player to be able to vibrate their lips without the assistance of the standing wave. Some traditions of single-pedal playing cite this as the reason for practising pedal tones, claiming that you are strengthening the embouchure, or whatever, in order to open up the extreme upper end of the horn. I would question the value of this based both upon personal experience of gaining nothing from the practice but also just based upon the argument that "99%" (read: a high percentage) of players are using single pedals to develop a range within the compass of the trumpet acting as a resonator and that those same players neither want or need to play over G6.

The important point, and the subject of the thread, is that when practising double-pedal tones the purpose is not simple strengthening the lips in order to allow a brute-force approach to the upper register as described above. Double pedal tones are about co-ordination. You need your lips to unfurl in order to play them properly. This unfurling conditions the player to use the correct muscles of the embouchure. As a warm up they act as a gentle stretching/releasing of these same muscles. There are reports of the "fat feel" that is felt as a result of this. Once the ability to play double pedals has been established then the real value of them can be explored, which is in the act of sliding between einsetzen and ansetzen, or vise versa. This encourages the forward-type lip setting, with a closed and efficient aperture. Continuing to move the lips in the way that you have learned from these exercises will result in that which is described in the 1987 book Superchops. Thus far this description is basically from Trumpet Yoga (1972). When the player has cultivated the ability to play with the chops in this way then they will be best prepared for interaction with the forward tongue as described in Trumpet Secrets (2002). Trying the forward tongue position with stretched lips or puckered lips will not allow for true benefit of that system.

Now Jerry, Ralph S and maybe others, tend to start people off at this finishing point, or one that has developed for another 15 years since! The forward tongue is the most important part after all; but as you can see here I believe there is a lot of value in understanding the whole system and how the player develops as a result of following it.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typically, "slotting" refers to the resonance due to the fundamental of the note being played aligning with a partial of the horn itself. This does not explain slotting of "double pedals".

It's also possible to get a slotting effect from a partial of the note being played aligning with a partial of the horn itself; this is likely what happens when a player feels slotting with a double pedal. The resonance is weaker than it is in the range the horn was designed for, but that doesn't mean it does not or cannot exist.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
I warm up with double pedal tones every day and have done for years. My familiarity with the sound and feel of the notes would make you believe that they "slot" but at this stage we're splitting hairs over semantics. There is important learning to be had here:

When playing any pedal tones the trumpet is acting as a megaphone and not a resonator. It is only from F#3 up to around G6 (depending on the shape of the bell) that a standard trumpet acts as a resonator. Below and above that pitch requires the player to be able to vibrate their lips without the assistance of the standing wave. Some traditions of single-pedal playing cite this as the reason for practising pedal tones, claiming that you are strengthening the embouchure, or whatever, in order to open up the extreme upper end of the horn. I would question the value of this based both upon personal experience of gaining nothing from the practice but also just based upon the argument that "99%" (read: a high percentage) of players are using single pedals to develop a range within the compass of the trumpet acting as a resonator and that those same players neither want or need to play over G6.

The important point, and the subject of the thread, is that when practising double-pedal tones the purpose is not simple strengthening the lips in order to allow a brute-force approach to the upper register as described above. Double pedal tones are about co-ordination. You need your lips to unfurl in order to play them properly. This unfurling conditions the player to use the correct muscles of the embouchure. As a warm up they act as a gentle stretching/releasing of these same muscles. There are reports of the "fat feel" that is felt as a result of this. Once the ability to play double pedals has been established then the real value of them can be explored, which is in the act of sliding between einsetzen and ansetzen, or vise versa. This encourages the forward-type lip setting, with a closed and efficient aperture. Continuing to move the lips in the way that you have learned from these exercises will result in that which is described in the 1987 book Superchops. Thus far this description is basically from Trumpet Yoga (1972). When the player has cultivated the ability to play with the chops in this way then they will be best prepared for interaction with the forward tongue as described in Trumpet Secrets (2002). Trying the forward tongue position with stretched lips or puckered lips will not allow for true benefit of that system.

Now Jerry, Ralph S and maybe others, tend to start people off at this finishing point, or one that has developed for another 15 years since! The forward tongue is the most important part after all; but as you can see here I believe there is a lot of value in understanding the whole system and how the player develops as a result of following it.


+1.
As eloquently written as should these double pedals be approached. Co-ordination! To me, albeit a mere amateur these double pedals (+the rest of the BE) made a dramatic difference. Never thought I could get that softness and elasticity in my nowadays old lips. It took a while to adjust my chops to play them in tune - today they absolutely "click" in tune at once.
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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
Typically, "slotting" refers to the resonance due to the fundamental of the note being played aligning with a partial of the horn itself. This does not explain slotting of "double pedals".

It's also possible to get a slotting effect from a partial of the note being played aligning with a partial of the horn itself; this is likely what happens when a player feels slotting with a double pedal. The resonance is weaker than it is in the range the horn was designed for, but that doesn't mean it does not or cannot exist.


This sounds quite a reasonable explanation, since the "slot" is very delicate. You can certainly blow any note on any valve combination down there but when the slotting effect is working then the valve change the note not the lip. The feeling is simlilar to playing 2 octaves above (where the valves absolutely dominate). E.g. you can trill a C to B or C to Bb using valves only.

Anyway, for me, and as written about by Richard https://trumpetpla.net/2016/06/08/einsetzen-ansetzen/ the only value of these notes has been to point towards the way to play the TCE embouchure. It's a way of figuring out the tongue/lip interaction for directing a thin tube of air across the top lip. Well, that's where I'm at with it at the moment and it's working!

I do not see the value of slurs from the double pedal to normal register... yet. It seems enough to experience the tongue/lip interaction and then break and re-seat the bottom lip for the the normal register. What do I know tho?
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forte wrote:
The fact you can't explain this with Newtonian physics is a non sequitur.


With the exception of particles approaching the speed of light and women, everything can be explained with Newtonian Physics.

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