Joined: 21 Feb 2014 Posts: 18 Location: Sussex - UK
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: Darker. Not bigger, just darker.
Hi all. I really would appreciate your thoughts on something.
I naturally have quite a bright sound but manage to tame it most of the time with a huge mouthpiece with a wide backbone (it’s a 2D on a 11 backbore for those of you that speak ‘Warburton’). The problem is that sometimes I still find myself being too bright for a given situation. I am a freelance player and am called upon to play many different styles so I have a standard 37 bell regular weight trumpet but really want something to try and darken the sound when needed. I’ve had a gold brass bell trumpet but really struggled to get it to sing so here are my thoughts for your consideration: do I try a lightweight gold brass bell in the hope that it rings a bit more than the standard weight without the brightness, or how about looking at a 72 bell instrument? I’d welcome your thoughts on the pros and cons of these, but also can you think of anything else I’ve not thought of to try?
Appreciate your thoughts. _________________ There are no chords that can't be improved by adding a double high C!
Usually the problem is mechanics or sound concept. I have never heard you, so I can't comment on that.
A 72 is a logical horn to try, or the 65. I would consider "red" brass, bronze, or copper. A little extra weight won't hurt. Maybe a heavier mouthpiece/adaptor and maybe heavier caps are worth trying.
More open throats can darken the sound, often at the detriment to tuning. Maybe worth trying?
Might be worth looking at Kanstul to get a copper bell.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject:
I'd try out different horns before braving a modification of my main horn. I'm a big fan of the 72 bell. I'd try that before venturing into anything more exotic. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Looks like you own some nice trumpets already. Consider getting a different main tuning slide. A rounded braced slide, perhaps made of bronze or sterling. There are mouthpieces made with more copper, like ACB's C series.
Are you noticing a lot of high frequencies in your sound in the loud dynamic mostly, or all around?
You might want to consider some different tuning slide shapes (+1 to the to other opinion here about that), some brass valve springs, then consider that your mouthpiece setup might be too OPEN, which can cause a very bright sound. Sometimes you need to go the the other way, scale down a little bit, and use a standard backbore.
Are your valve stem washers felt or synthetic? Vibrations will intensify through denser material vs felt.
You might want to adjust your waterkey screw 1/4 turn looser, then check the sound. Slot will reduce and vibration may increase. Then again. See where your sweet spot is. Mouthpiece clocking too. It all can help a little bit, and I would consider the most conservative methods before investing a lot of money in major modifications or new instruments. _________________ Daniel J. Flores
Trumpet Artist
www.dflorestrumpet.com
Last edited by TrumpetDan79 on Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
I agree that the 72 bell could make a difference. It should give you a "darker" sound. However, the difference may be more subtle than what you want.
I owned a Wild Thing at one time and it has a huge bell throat and got a very dark sound, so maybe that would be a horn for you to consider. I think you can get a Wild Thing now with a copper bell. Usually the more copper the darker the sound but my Wild Thing (with a yellow brass bell) was pretty dark sounding already. _________________ HERMOKIWI
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:58 pm Post subject:
these are some ideas to try. I'm not saying that they'll definitely work for you, but if you're convinced that a hardware solution is the answer I'd try the following and see if it helps:
- try a copper belled horn
- I don't know what the characteristics of your current horn are, but I'd try something with different characteristics. If you're playing a large bore, try a medium large and see what happens. If you're playing something light, go heavy or vice versa
- If you you're trying other horns, try more than one of the same make/model
- experiment with leadpipes
I'm going to say this again just so everybody understands. I'm not saying these will necessarily work for you. I don't expect you to go out and buy a bunch of horns, but if you can get to a decent shop, try some things out. You may get lucky and run into a solution.
Welcome and... Wow! you have a whole stable full of B&S horns!!
Hey, I know that you were asking about hardware, but if I were in your position, I'd make sure of a couple of things first. Maybe you already have looked into these. If so, good!
First, have you been able to play for a listener whom you respect and can verbally give an accurate and informative assessment of your tone? It is extremely valuable to have such a resource. Nobody hears what they actually sound like to an audience and most of the time we think we are brighter than we really are.
Second, if your tone is truly bright, it may be that you need an adjustment to your embouchure to round out the tone. With the internet, you can tap into some mighty fine teachers. One of the best on our side of the pond is Pops McLaughlin. His Bb Trumpet College has great resources (some are free) and you can even arrange a live Skype lesson to see how things stand. His website is: http://www.bbtrumpet.com.
In London we have a member named "Retlaw", which is Walter spelled backwards. He is a professional photographer. His signature says something like, "It's amazing how much we hear with our eyes!" I say this because I've had the privilege of sampling a number of different trumpets and flugelhorn from several manufacturers over the past 14 years. In general, the different materials make very little difference to one's tone. The change in what we expect to hear is much greater and I think it has a bigger effect on our tone than the materials do.
Your 37 style trumpet should be able to produce a very nice full-bodied tone, if your technique is good. So, my suggestion is to start by assessing what you as a player are doing before spending money and time chasing the equipment solution that may not be the issue. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:36 pm Post subject:
I have 2 thoughts (or so) to offer:
1. It's not so much the instruments, but the sound you have in your head, and the way you approach the horn to create that sound. I say this because clearly, it is not working, or you wouldn't ask the question. So there is a space here in which to sit and think and see what comes to mind.
2. Sort of linked to point 1, it is the equipment you have chosen. That big mouthpiece is probably too big and open and forces you to compromise to get close to the sound you are hearing (consciously or unconsciously). I fell into this trap in HS, and had enormous gear and played very, very bright. I had little endurance as a result. A SMALLER mouthpiece, which is more efficient and allows you to relax and create a more relaxed sound may be a better bet.
I played two piccolos last weekend, back to back to a trusted colleague. They have very different sounds in the studio. In the last acoustic of a big church, all he said was, 'you sound like you'. Both great, no problem with either... They are VERY different instruments, BTW. I think this illustrates one last point: no matter what you do equipment-wise, you won't get all that much satisfaction. A change of tonal concept (conscious or unconscious) is what I think is needed.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
Joined: 21 Feb 2014 Posts: 18 Location: Sussex - UK
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:30 pm Post subject:
Thank you all, so much for your time and wisdom. These are all very helpful. Just to clear up one point which I admit to not making clear, I don’t want to permenantly change my sound. For a lot of the work I do my sound is ideal. I do a lot of lead work in big bands and can crack plaster from 100 metres with a top G and this requires a bright sound. The nature of the variety of work I do though means that the next gig might be Mahler 5. I know at least one of the “big guns” on TH talks about hardware vs software; well I’m not desperate to change the software. As has been suggested here I do use a variety of mouthpieces from a 3SV/5 up to a 2D/11 and lots in between but still have a desire, at times, to darken the sound more.
I’m going to try all the suggestions you’ve given and I’ll keep you posted. _________________ There are no chords that can't be improved by adding a double high C!
Just thought I would share a video of mine where I use some different gear. I'm playing on a Martin Handcraft Imperial. The intro was a Warburton 9M/NY and at 1:40 I demo a Curry 3TF. (trumpet-flugel cup); of all the mouthpieces I have tried, the TF is definitely the darkest.
Most horns brighten up the more power you give it. A Bach 72 can sound dark in lower volumes but will brighten up. Deep cup and backing up a bit can make the sound remarkably darker.
Some horns have a dark character but get extremely bright: A Sterling bell sounds dark and can hurt on lead like nothing else.
I have a horn with a big bronze bell. But the 140mm bell is 0.45mm thin so it is very dark and smokey on the softer side but brightens up nicely. So with the foot on the accelarator I can change sound colors.
If you want to play soft and dark this may be another horn like playing loud and dark:
soft and dark: big, thin bell in copper or bronze or - at least - gold brass.
loud and dark: big heavy horn. A Taylor 470 Chicago Custom gets loud but not bright.
For classical music this could be a Weimann Passion or Schagerl Gansch heavy with a suiting mouthpiece on the rotary side of life. _________________ Enjoy music!
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:21 pm Post subject:
Andy Del wrote:
I have 2 thoughts (or so) to offer:
1. It's not so much the instruments, but the sound you have in your head, and the way you approach the horn to create that sound.
What Andy said. (the whole quote, but especially this)
Basically, if you play the same way, you'll always sound more or less the same. I more or less sound like me - round, pleasant, refined, classical good tone whether it's on my Benge 3X, my Yamaha, my Radial, any cornet, or even Flugel on a 1C, 3C, or whatever mouthpiece.
However, many people (including to some degree, me) can color their sound differently. If I want some of that edgy lead trumpet thing, I can't turn into Doc or Maynard or whatever, but I can move that slider up and the smooth, mellowness down. Equipment can help a bit, but it's mostly me and the sound concept in my head, approach to the horn, and way I use my air that change.
If you want to sound different, you need another version of software. You're hardware might tweak it some and make your job easier, but it won't give you a different sound unless you input something different into that hardware. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:54 am Post subject: Austin Winds
I found this thread just now because the title describes what has been my goal for years. I too have a naturally quite bright tone - and that's perhaps being polite. I was never suited to playing trumpet due to structural issues that provide the wrong bone shape/placement behind the embouchure. The result is that the airstream through it is not as it should be and the spectrum produced in the mouthpiece cup is week in the low end while strong in the highs. I am a case where equipment can help offset a deficiency in the player - not saying the OP's situation is the same, but a similar goal. I recently found Austin Winds while on vacation in Texas. I played their lineup and it ranged from something 72-esque, perhaps even goldbrass 37-esque down to a trumpet that is dark enough to confuse with a flugelhorn. In the middle, right next to their better known and very tonally flexible depending on blow and piece horn the Stage 470, I found the Stage 466, which has a full rich core tone with lots of lows, but still sounds like a trumpet (which so many dark horns don't). And best for me, when I am tired or overblow (Im a euphonium player by training, so overblowing these little things is a hazard for me), it doesn't go bright. Only down side is you have to go to Austin to try them. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
If you are looking for that darker sound, you may want to try out weighted valve caps. I've heard those do work a bit, but might slightly decrease the amount of note accuracy because of the added-on weight. A 72 Bach bell would darken up the sound a bit (more than a 37 bell) and would have a strong, powerful sound to it. Another option that I have seen work (with lacquer horns anyway) is strip the lacquer finish completely and get a raw brass result. It darkens the tone of the instrument quite well. Hope that helps.
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2322 Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:38 am Post subject:
I agree that working on your concept may be the direction to go, but if you want to experiement with gear a little...
With Bach's some things to play with: Curry Action Rods, brass valve guides, heavier valve caps, and Tone Rings.
Curry's Action Rods - a set of replacement valve stems that are heavier than the aluminum standard Bach set..
Brass valve guides vs. nylon - surprizingly add a bit of darkness and security to many Bachs.
Heavy valve caps - Curry makes a nice set of 3 complete (with extra weights and rubber grommets) or Bach- play around with how many you use. At times I'm fond of having 1 heavy weight on the bottom of the 3rd valve.
Tone Rings - some Bachs come with 1 ring between the casing and the bottom valve cap, Artisan models I believe.
All of these have an influence on the instruments tone, but like anything you modify there is give and take. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:49 am Post subject:
I am using a KGUBrass Heavy Trim Kit on my Yamha 2335 and the Trim Kit does darken the sound of the Yamaha a lot. Word of caution: I had to re-align my valves to have a 'perfect' valve alignment again.
I also use a KGUBrass mouthpiece booster on my Practice horn and that also does darken the sound a lot.
Both options are not too expensive and can easily be added and removed.
KGUBRass sells there stuff via eBay. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing
I agree that working on your concept may be the direction to go, but if you want to experiement with gear a little...
With Bach's some things to play with: Curry Action Rods, brass valve guides, heavier valve caps, and Tone Rings.
Curry's Action Rods - a set of replacement valve stems that are heavier than the aluminum standard Bach set..
Brass valve guides vs. nylon - surprizingly add a bit of darkness and security to many Bachs.
Heavy valve caps - Curry makes a nice set of 3 complete (with extra weights and rubber grommets) or Bach- play around with how many you use. At times I'm fond of having 1 heavy weight on the bottom of the 3rd valve.
Tone Rings - some Bachs come with 1 ring between the casing and the bottom valve cap, Artisan models I believe.
All of these have an influence on the instruments tone, but like anything you modify there is give and take.
What's the affect of nickel vs brass inner slides or brass vs nickel outer slides? _________________ LB Bel Canto #59
Holton B47
Frankenhorn projects 1-5
Adams F1
Olds Super Tenor Trombone
Alesis QS8
B2MS3, B2GS3,
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