| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:59 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| beagle wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | I draw a slightly different conclusion...
There are loads of "right ways" - the key is therefore to find the right "right way" for you.
Or in other words, try things that work for great players by all means... And keep the ones that work for you. |
I'd actually take it a step further. If you get two sets of advice that say the exact opposite from enough good players, then it tells you that whatever the factor is they are advising about may not really be that relevant to becoming a good player as it clearly works both ways.
Perhaps you can then use this list of contradictions as things you can safely ignore in your quest to become a better player.
Instead focus on things that everyone agrees on.
Rob |
Well, I'd take it slightly further than I did too, but I often write too much and was trying to keep it brief
If I were to expand, I would say "keep the ones that work for you... at the moment".
Which actually disagrees somewhat with your statement that:
| Quote: | | If you get two sets of advice that say the exact opposite from enough good players, then it tells you that whatever the factor is they are advising about may not really be that relevant to becoming a good player as it clearly works both ways. |
Not quite - if you get two sets of advice that say the exact opposite (from good players/teachers) then it tells you that whatever the factor under consideration happens to be, it's probably important and relevant but that different players (or the same player at different times in their development) might require different framing to be able to improve on that factor.... or atleast, that more clarification is required.
For example - "more air" isn't universally right, or atleast, the way some students would interpret that wouldn't universally lead to the correct results... so perhaps some players would respond positively to opposite advice, or slightly different advice that leads them to play the way the teacher wants them to.
As a result:
| Quote: |
Perhaps you can then use this list of contradictions as things you can safely ignore in your quest to become a better player.
Instead focus on things that everyone agrees on. |
Well, if the list of contradictions were exhaustive then you'd be left with almost nothing left that *everyone* agrees on.
So that leaves me back with what I said earlier - "keep the ones that work for you... at the moment".
In other words - listen, give everything an openminded shot... and let the results lead the way, keep doing what works and don't do what doesn't, and revisit things periodically as the bumps in the road (almost inevitably) emerge.
Best of luck! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
trumpetchops
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 2644
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My post wasn't meant to pick on anyone or to say that the pros working in a symphony or studio don't know.
I read a post saying that it was bad advice to play low on the pitch. The guy posting has been around for a long time and (I think) knows what he's talking about. When I was given the advice to play lower on the pitch I thought it was (and still is) good advice. That just got me thinking about all the different things I've been advised and I thought it would be funny to post.
I hope nobody is thinking that I'm implying that any of my teachers hurt my playing or gave bad advice. I'm sure all of the things I've been taught were valid or meant to correct something at the time.
_________________
Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dave CCM/SSO
Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2015
Posts: 145
Location: Cincinnati
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Joe,
I totally understand, I've had similar thoughts myself over the years. It's funny how one piece of advice will be just what we need at a certain time, then later it is totally not helpful.
I have learned to love the journey!
Dave
_________________
Dave
Springfield Symphony Orchestra (OH)
- www.springfieldsym.org
Seven Hills Brass
- http://www.facebook.com/sevenhillsbrass |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blbaumgarn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 705
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:49 pm Post subject: Bad Advice |
|
|
50 years ago auditioning for colleges I did first at the Ohio St. University. Took their battery of music tests and then played for the lead trumpet prof. He told my parents after finishing that I did very well on aptitudes but may have an embouchure problem that in incorrectable. I played football and kept getting a slightly fat lip and adjusted my mouthpiece upward for comfort. The prof. said that they definitely would accept me, but that I couldn't develop into a serious player without a "nearly impossible" fix. I auditioned at two other schools and was accepted. Finally, much late in the school year I was granted an audition at BGSU. My parents took me up. I played for quite a long time with the teacher and then explained about the "problem" that the other man said I had. He came right up by my face and had me do some lip flexibilities. Then, he said, yea you aren't all the way back to a good position yet, but it's not bad, son. Then he told my parents and I that "we can't let this young man go to OSU! Try playing with alot of volume at the end of practice. Not loud just lots of air and volume for 5-10 minutes and call my house when you come up for orientation.
We will have a lesson. I took his advice and two months later at orientation we met for a lesson. He said he didn't know what the "exact" perfect position was but he said your embouchure problem is no more. He was an extremely wise man and a wonderful teacher. He considered a "fatal flaw" nothing more than a challenge to correct. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
O00Joe
Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 364
Location: Houston & Austin, Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
At a certain summer music festival, I was assigned principal for Mussorgsky/Ravel's Pictures and an Exhibition. So of course the Promenade was a main focus for one of the lessons with a relatively well known principal trumpeter.
"Don't play it so musically, play it like a hitman. That's who you are as an orchestral trumpeter, a hitman hired to hit all the notes perfectly." Not an exact quote but that was the gist, he emphasised no phrasing and playing it completely straight. It's not necessarily bad advice but it was probably the antithesis of my personal musical ethic. When it came to the performance I played it the way I like, which did receive me much praise so I know what I was doing was still good albeit different.
I also had a few lessons with another relatively well known principal trumpeter while I was there and I was blown away at how disappointing it was, like in every way. But these guys are the ones with top positions in the industry so what do I know?
Other than that, what I remember most as far as "bad advice" goes from the lessons throughout my life is the almost constant conflict in opinion on how to perform certain pieces or passages. Orchestral excerpts seem the most subject to this.
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike Sailors wrote: | Except for very rare occasions, the TH is the last place anyone should come to for advice on trumpet playing, or music for that matter.
Now, if you’re lookin to argue about what to call the G on the 4th ledger line, TH is your place! |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| O00Joe wrote: | At a certain summer music festival, I was assigned principal for Mussorgsky/Ravel's Pictures and an Exhibition. So of course the Promenade was a main focus for one of the lessons with a relatively well known principal trumpeter.
"Don't play it so musically, play it like a hitman. That's who you are as an orchestral trumpeter, a hitman hired to hit all the notes perfectly." Not an exact quote but that was the gist, he emphasised no phrasing and playing it completely straight. It's not necessarily bad advice but it was probably the antithesis of my personal musical ethic. When it came to the performance I played it the way I like, which did receive me much praise so I know what I was doing was still good albeit different. |
I think his advice was pretty near spot on - quite aside from the purpose of the trumpet in the orchestra, there are simply some lines that are too iconic to put your own personal musical stamp on.
What, to you, felt musical probably came across to him (and probably some in the audience) as indulgence.
Now sure, it's a music festival not a serious paid/professional gig, but what the professional player is telling you is what would be required of you if it was a paid/professional gig.... to turn around and deliberately ignore that advice once on stage is pretty rude, in my honest opinion.
There will be times you're expected to play things in a way that you don't personally like, the last thing you want to do is give yourself a reputation for being someone who will do it their own way regardless.
On the topic of praise, also, I'll simply say that (as with advice givers) many people who praise you don't have the first clue what they're talking about - when it comes to praise and criticism, it's important to be careful whose you take seriously and whose you listen politely and discard.
Sure, it's nice that an audience has enjoyed what you played, but there will be people who appreciate what you play regardless of how you play it - heck, I've even had people compliment my playing when I know I've played a long, long way from my best. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trickg
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is an interesting thread. As a guy who has played and gigged for a good long bit, I've been around the block a couple of times when it comes to how to approach the horn, what to practice, what equipment to use, etc. While I've come back around to the idea that equipment can matter, I've never been one to go too far out on a limb with anything radical.
But, there are still some odd ideas out there, and they are alive and well, particularly among those in the younger crowd who are looking for any little edge or advantage to propel them to greater things with the horn. Recently I've been chatting with a young player recently who is all caught up looking for the next thing that's going to help - a new mouthpiece, "no pressure" playing, this study, that study, etc.
After years of wrestling this hunk of brass around, I've come to the conclusion that there are no tricks, no gimmicks, there isn't a horn or a mouthpiece that's going to just all of a sudden be "it." Equipment can help, but the bottom line is that anyone who wants to play well is going to have to spend time in the woodshed working on:
Sound production
Articulation
Flexibility
Accuracy
Phrasing
Time/Tempo (this gets neglected all too frequently)
The foundation has to be built and reinforced, and until you get to that next level of proficiency, it can all be addressed with fairly simple exercises. It doesn't have to be fancy, and it doesn't have to come from any particular method book. It doesn't even have to come from a method book.
Those are just my 2¢ from the peanut gallery.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Last edited by trickg on Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dave CCM/SSO
Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2015
Posts: 145
Location: Cincinnati
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | After years of wrestling this hunk of brass around, I've come to the conclusion that there are no tricks, no gimmicks, there isn't a horn or a mouthpiece that's going to just all of a sudden be "it." Equipment can help, but the bottom line is that anyone who wants to play well is going to have to spend time in the woodshed |
Well said
_________________
Dave
Springfield Symphony Orchestra (OH)
- www.springfieldsym.org
Seven Hills Brass
- http://www.facebook.com/sevenhillsbrass |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2595
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| O00Joe wrote: | | When it came to the performance I played it the way I like, which did receive me much praise so I know what I was doing was still good albeit different.
|
Did the guy you got the advice from hear the performance? And if so did he notice?
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
youngtrumpet
New Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2018
Posts: 5
Location: Panhandle Florida
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Remember, too, that a lot of good performers are good not because of but in spite of their mechanics.
There are tons of pro athletes, for example, who are good at their sport but are terrible technical athletes. There are HOF NFL quarterbacks who are mediocre athletes. (No, I'm not giving examples. No fighting.) If you're old enough think back to the Superstars competition. Great individuals at there game, lousy at everything else.
Don't depend on what even a great player tells you. He may not be aware of what he does. Seek out the teachers (or the students of those teachers) who's principles stand the test of time: Caruso, Adam, Cichowicz. All of them say something like the paraphrased Bull Durham; trumpet playing is a simple game. You hear the note, you breathe, you play the note.
_________________
95% of your mind is thinking about perfect rhythm, 5% of your mind is thinking about keeping the blow steady. - Harbison |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| youngtrumpet wrote: | Remember, too, that a lot of good performers are good not because of but in spite of their mechanics.
There are tons of pro athletes, for example, who are good at their sport but are terrible technical athletes. There are HOF NFL quarterbacks who are mediocre athletes. (No, I'm not giving examples. No fighting.) If you're old enough think back to the Superstars competition. Great individuals at there game, lousy at everything else.
Don't depend on what even a great player tells you. He may not be aware of what he does. Seek out the teachers (or the students of those teachers) who's principles stand the test of time: Caruso, Adam, Cichowicz. All of them say something like the paraphrased Bull Durham; trumpet playing is a simple game. You hear the note, you breathe, you play the note. |
Nice first post! I'm going to just add that among the great teachers, Herbert L. Clarke, Louis Maggio, Claude Gordon, and William Vacchiano definitely belong on the list. Note that Bill Adam studied with Clarke and Maggio (as did Claude Gordon) and he also studied with Vacchiano. Going back even further, the true roots of the tree begin with St. Jacome, Arban, Domenico Gatti, Ernest Williams and Max Schlossberg. And Charles Colin deserves mention as well.
My teacher Claude Gordon once wrote, "I well realize that there will be those who will dispute much of what I say. However, if I am wrong, then Arban, Saint-Jacome, Liberati, Herbert L. Clarke, and Max Schlossberg were all wrong, for that is how they played and taught."
Go with the Greats and you can't go wrong.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
beagle
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Posts: 419
Location: Vienna, Austria
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Perhaps you can then use this list of contradictions as things you can safely ignore in your quest to become a better player.
Instead focus on things that everyone agrees on. |
Well, if the list of contradictions were exhaustive then you'd be left with almost nothing left that *everyone* agrees on.
|
This is certainly true and a small list is actually a good thing, as it is hard to focus on too many things. I would actually expect it to be long, though fairly general.
There are many things that obviously work and different people respond to different techniques. If all roads lead to Rome then it doesn't matter which path you take, so you can choose something that you feel comfortable with. There are clearly some well-trodden paths and some that cross each other.
However if there is even one item on this list of things that the vast majority of good players agree on, then perhaps not all paths are equally good and some may even lead to dead ends.
For example, I would expect that regardless of which particular method they used, most good players had at some stage put in a lot of serious time and effort in learning their instrument and would all agree that a lazy approach does not work. This may be obvious, but is still a big reason why many fail.
Some sort of systematic approach to practice (even though the systems may all be quite different), evaluating their playing, setting goals, recognizing strengths and weaknesses, and prioritizing what they need to work on, may also be things that these players have in common.
There may even be some more specific things on the list such as perhaps that some sort of lip flexibility exercise is beneficial (even if they don't agree on the exact exercise, nor how to actually perform it). Maybe long tones is another possibility?
However once you get to questions such as whether to lip buzz or not there are serious contradictions all the way from it being essential, to being detrimental.
Rob
_________________
Schagerl Sig. James Morrison
Selmer Paris Chorus 80J |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
youngtrumpet
New Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2018
Posts: 5
Location: Panhandle Florida
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
@John Mohan - Thanks! Yeah, the "etc" got left off somehow. Those aren't the only teachers I reference.
Tony Young
_________________
95% of your mind is thinking about perfect rhythm, 5% of your mind is thinking about keeping the blow steady. - Harbison |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| youngtrumpet wrote: | @John Mohan - Thanks! Yeah, the "etc" got left off somehow. Those aren't the only teachers I reference.
Tony Young |
Honestly, based on the quality of everything else you wrote Tony, I should have realized that.
Best wishes,
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ComeBackTumpet
Regular Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2018
Posts: 22
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| trickg wrote: | This is an interesting thread. As a guy who has played and gigged for a good long bit, I've been around the block a couple of times when it comes to how to approach the horn, what to practice, what equipment to use, etc. While I've come back around to the idea that equipment can matter, I've never been one to go too far out on a limb with anything radical.
But, there are still some odd ideas out there, and they are alive and well, particularly among those in the younger crowd who are looking for any little edge or advantage to propel them to greater things with the horn. Recently I've been chatting with a young player recently who is all caught up looking for the next thing that's going to help - a new mouthpiece, "no pressure" playing, this study, that study, etc.
After years of wrestling this hunk of brass around, I've come to the conclusion that there are no tricks, no gimmicks, there isn't a horn or a mouthpiece that's going to just all of a sudden be "it." Equipment can help, but the bottom line is that anyone who wants to play well is going to have to spend time in the woodshed working on:
Sound production
Articulation
Flexibility
Accuracy
Phrasing
Time/Tempo (this gets neglected all too frequently)
The foundation has to be built and reinforced, and until you get to that next level of proficiency, it can all be addressed with fairly simple exercises. It doesn't have to be fancy, and it doesn't have to come from any particular method book. It doesn't even have to come from a method book.
Those are just my 2¢ from the peanut gallery. |
Totally agree! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
O00Joe
Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 364
Location: Houston & Austin, Texas
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TKSop wrote: | | O00Joe wrote: | At a certain summer music festival, I was assigned principal for Mussorgsky/Ravel's Pictures and an Exhibition. So of course the Promenade was a main focus for one of the lessons with a relatively well known principal trumpeter.
"Don't play it so musically, play it like a hitman. That's who you are as an orchestral trumpeter, a hitman hired to hit all the notes perfectly." Not an exact quote but that was the gist, he emphasised no phrasing and playing it completely straight. It's not necessarily bad advice but it was probably the antithesis of my personal musical ethic. When it came to the performance I played it the way I like, which did receive me much praise so I know what I was doing was still good albeit different. |
I think his advice was pretty near spot on - quite aside from the purpose of the trumpet in the orchestra, there are simply some lines that are too iconic to put your own personal musical stamp on.
What, to you, felt musical probably came across to him (and probably some in the audience) as indulgence.
Now sure, it's a music festival not a serious paid/professional gig, but what the professional player is telling you is what would be required of you if it was a paid/professional gig.... to turn around and deliberately ignore that advice once on stage is pretty rude, in my honest opinion.
There will be times you're expected to play things in a way that you don't personally like, the last thing you want to do is give yourself a reputation for being someone who will do it their own way regardless.
On the topic of praise, also, I'll simply say that (as with advice givers) many people who praise you don't have the first clue what they're talking about - when it comes to praise and criticism, it's important to be careful whose you take seriously and whose you listen politely and discard.
Sure, it's nice that an audience has enjoyed what you played, but there will be people who appreciate what you play regardless of how you play it - heck, I've even had people compliment my playing when I know I've played a long, long way from my best. |
So I'm to ignore all my other teachers and play it the way this particular one wanted? What's the point of being an artist and having an opinion then? The other trumpet teachers, the conductor, the music director, my colleagues, etc. all said it was great during the rehearsals and after the performance, I played it the same way every time. (The teacher I was referring to had to leave before the performance and didn't come to rehearsals.) Hell, I was seated next to the music director at the fundraiser dinner later in the festival because it went so well.
You can't please everybody. Part of being an artist is finding what works while still being true to yourself.
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Irving
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 1886
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
If a certain conductor didn't like the way the aforementioned professional trumpet player would have played the opening to Pictures, you can be sure that he or she would have had to have played it differently, especially if the conductor was the principal conductor. There is nothing wrong with listening to a professional's opinion on how to play a certain passage, but if the conductor doesn't like it, then he has the final say. The musician who actually had to play the part did it the way he thought it should be done, and the conductor liked it, so good for him. The lesson is to be able to flexible, as you never know what you will be asked to do. You can easily be caught off guard if you are only prepared to play a passage the way a certain player instructed you to.
Last edited by Irving on Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RandyTX
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 5299
Location: Central Texas
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TKSop wrote: |
On the topic of praise, also, I'll simply say that (as with advice givers) many people who praise you don't have the first clue what they're talking about - when it comes to praise and criticism, it's important to be careful whose you take seriously and whose you listen politely and discard. |
| O00Joe wrote: | | So I'm to ignore all my other teachers and play it the way this particular one wanted? What's the point of being an artist and having an opinion then? The other trumpet teachers, the conductor, the music director, my colleagues, etc. all said it was great during the rehearsals and after the performance, I played it the same way every time. Hell, I was seated next to the music director at the fundraiser dinner later in the festival because it went so well. |
I wouldn't be quick to dismiss TKSop's point here. It seems you're taking it a bit personal. It's very common today, thanks to things like "haters gonna hate" and social media platforms where you're only supposed to Like things, and never dislike anything, for people to be excessively complimentary all the time.
You see it quite often in trumpet groups, where somebody that's been playing for like a week posts a video of them doing Mary Had a Little Lamb. The tone is horrible, the pitch is worse, half the notes are wrong, etc. But, it's followed by 500 likes and dozens of comments telling them how great they sound.
I suppose the theory is that positive feedback will encourage them to keep going. It's not anything remotely like constructive criticism though. I suspect some of them decide they're so good they don't even need to practice much and it's time to start gigging.
Anyone attempting to head in an honest direction with their comments, immediately gets gang-tackled by all the others and thrown out of the club.
I can see both sides, but if 100 people tell you you're great, and deep down you know you still have work to do, then maybe those 1 or 2 dissenters have a point you might want to listen to. Then again, if you were very happy with the performance yourself and did the best you could on that occasion, then be happy and move on to the next challenge.
_________________
"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AlbertHwang
New Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 10
Location: United States
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You make a great point. I've also been given conflicting advice.
_________________
Albert |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
