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A Tale of Two Placements ...



 
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:19 am    Post subject: A Tale of Two Placements ... Reply with quote

... one higher, one lower. I'm a IIIB with a history of mouthpiece placement drifting up and down until all the wheels fall off when it gets too far in either direction. Since Doc worked with many players on finding a new placement (due to injury or whatever), I wondered if it is possible that I could have two different placements, both of them workable. Even if so, the drifting back and forth between the two I had was frustrating and not working. The drifting up and down is, I believe, a direct result of the dreaded "wind up" that Doc constantly warned me about. Fast forward: I reviewed my lesson notes from Dave Sheetz and saw this sentence: "I am especially pleased to see your placement a little higher. All IIIB's need to work on this." Now, after a couple of months of diligent work to eradicate the wind-up and keep my placement up where it belongs, I am finally experiencing good results--consistency both in the practice room and on the bandstand. Is it true, as Dave said in my lesson notes, that all IIIBs need to work on higher placement? Dave, it would be great if you could weigh in on this!
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To ensure we are all on the same page - I am understanding "higher" as moving the mouthpiece placement closer to the nose, and "lower" the chin.

Define "workable". I would say generally "no", it is more likely to harm than help.

A lot of my playing problems have been caused by messed up placement, fighting or accidentally switching type, careless mouth corner inhalations and pedal tones

I'm a IIIB with quite a high placement. First typed by Rich Willey (BeboppinFool) in 2004/5 (IIRC). Then by Chris LaBarbera in 2016/7 - it was Chris' first comment regarding my type. Initially he thought I may have been IIIA, judging by placement. And not to speak on his behalf, but I doubt Dave would advise that I move to a higher placement based on my experience. That said, I am but a sample size of 1. I have been working on moving to a lower placement for the last 3 years or so and it has been very positive - my pivot is much more stable, my sound better, and generally I connect the registers without feeling the need to reset - I played an arpeggio from low F# to A# below double C and back down today without any want for a reset. This is HUGE for me, as I have had the most terrible low register break at low C.

Slightly O/T:

The last 2 or 3 years I have been learning how to approach and play the bottom register without messing up my chops. I attribute the problems I have in the low register to 2 main things.

1 - In my formative years playing I had to figure out how to play low notes with no guidance from my tutor. What I was doing wrong (which a non-musician could see) was fighting my physical makeup and re-shaping my lips to play low C to F# with a really distended IIIA-type embouchure. I figured that was how it was done. I was only about 7.

2 - Pedal tones. When I was about 18/19 I spent a couple of years working at the CG Systematic Approach (a year of which was very diligent practice). This made me reinforce the bad I learned as a kid. My embouchure was all kinds of messed up. Before CG I had an "ok" high F (wasn't hard), endurance problems, and a register break at low C. After this pedal tone torture, my chops all went south, I had a bigger (louder/more spread) sound, a register break, and a massively unreliable register above high C.

Yesterday I experienced the same pain and frustration after spending a couple hours playing pedals the night before. I wanted to see if I could keep the same chop set, be very careful and gentle in my practice of them, and be as open minded as possible. Well, for me, they damage and cause my playing to get demonstrably and dramatically worse. I guess Doc knew what he was talking about when he implores: NO PEDALS FOR TRUMPET PLAYERS!

I'm aware of the confirmation bias phenomenon, so take it for what it is worth. For me, my mantra is: don't fight your type, and pedal tones are Kryptonite.

Incidentally, Rich Willey, who was one of (if not the) first to get me on the right track, plays trumpet as a IIIB and trombone a IIIA if I am not mistaken. I don't play a lot of trombone, but I actually think I might do the exact same. I must check.

If you are a IIIB, and getting advice from Dave, you are in a very good place! This DSR forum is a wealth of knowledge, it is a treasure. I wish people were more active. TH can be off-putting at times and some of the best posters here have left.

Just FYI - if you happen to see my YouTube videos, my setup and all is a work in progress - I love this method, but I'm not by any means a poster boy technique wise. I know how far I have to go. Buttt..... if you want to see 2 of the best IIIB's in action, dig this!!


Link

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Type3B
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the informative reply! One thing that interests me about it is that Rich Willey--who also is a IIIB--has, if my memory serves me correctly, posted about his having the opposite problem. His placement crept higher and higher until everything fell apart. In response, Doc had Rich place so low that he thought it impossible to play there, but, lo and behold, everything came back almost instantly. Rich, if I'm wrong about this, please correct me--or please chime in anyway on this "wandering placement" syndrome.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Type3B wrote:
Thanks for the informative reply! One thing that interests me about it is that Rich Willey--who also is a IIIB--has, if my memory serves me correctly, posted about his having the opposite problem. His placement crept higher and higher until everything fell apart. In response, Doc had Rich place so low that he thought it impossible to play there, but, lo and behold, everything came back almost instantly. Rich, if I'm wrong about this, please correct me--or please chime in anyway on this "wandering placement" syndrome.

Your recollection is 100% correct.

I am having trouble with this whole notion that a IIIB ought to strive for a higher placement, and that being said, I am waiting to hear from others who may either corroborate that or dispute it.

I, for one (and largely due to my experience), do not think placing lower on the chops is a problem for a IIIB.

Also, no, I play trumpet as a IIIB, bass trumpet/valve trombone as a IIIB, and tuba as a IIIB. No doubt about it, I am IIIB all the way.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies, Rich, I thought I recalled you saying your trombone playing was IIIA.

As for the placement - I think if anything I drift higher in my playing, to my detriment, so this IIIB aims to place lower.

I am going to try and experiment like you did, Rich, with lower setting.

Best,
Mike
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that for IIIB's, and perhaps likewise for all other types, there is some individual "wiggle room" for high-low placement within the parameters of the type. The key is to find it for yourself. Yes?
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich, didn't you say you were a IVA on trombone in a post before? Did you decide to slip your placement back up or did it just change naturally?

I think the "higher placement the better it is" approach is a IIIA thing. Because as a IV I have experienced that but with lower placement. IIIA is in many ways the opposite of a IV. So it seems to make sense, in some cases, at least.

IIIA and IIIB are quite different animals also, although they may look darn near the same in some cases. So it doesn't surprise me a IIIB might not benefit as much from a super-high placement. They are pulling down to ascend and that makes a big difference.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoshMizruchi wrote:
Rich, didn't you say you were a IVA on trombone in a post before? Did you decide to slip your placement back up or did it just change naturally?


I'm sure Rich can speak for himself, but if I recall correctly it was something of a ruse to clear a mental block... really IIIB all along, but believing it was IVA?

Quote:
I think the "higher placement the better it is" approach is a IIIA thing. Because as a IV I have experienced that but with lower placement. IIIA is in many ways the opposite of a IV. So it seems to make sense, in some cases, at least.


Maybe...

Or maybe there's an element of subterfuge going on here?

I don't know this stuff as well as you guys do, so I could well be wrong... but I guess it's possible for some 3B's to risk switching into IV/IVA?
If the player is at risk of that particular pitfall, then maybe telling them that all IIIB need to place higher makes them feel more confident than telling them that most IIIB need to place lower but they're already placing too low and flirting with type switching?
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoshMizruchi wrote:
Rich, didn't you say you were a IVA on trombone in a post before? Did you decide to slip your placement back up or did it just change naturally?

Actually, when I was at my wits end and my trumpet-playing days appeared to be over, Doc told me I was a IV on trombone. Today I am convinced he did that because he knew that I would be excited about playing again and would be starting with a clean slate, in a manner of speaking.

Doug Elliott and Dave Wilken and several others watched me play bass trumpet through a transparent mouthpiece some 25 or so years later and said I was definitely IIIB, no two ways about it.

A regular IV and a IIIB use the identical pivot, and my placement was always low, so I think Doc was trying to help me heal the "mental scars" as he called them until I was confident on another brass instrument. He may have planned to tell me that down the road, but he died in '88 or '89.

Anyway, he told me (several times) the story of Johnny Mandel and how he took a detour on trombone and bass trumpet before coming back to the trumpet years later. In my case, I spent the years from '81 through '96 healing the mental scars and came back to trumpet (very slowly) with the ability to double on trumpet and valve trombone (bass trumpet).

I am 100% positive Doc would be thrilled that I am taking those same kind of baby steps learning tuba. I've been doing my Pivot Stabilizer on tuba using my IIIB pivot and am making progress . . . slowly but sorely as I like to say.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you might be type switching as well.

I dealt with going between IIIB and IIIA - for a long time actually. It's very frustrating because one day you feel like you can do anything, and the very next day it all falls apart.

I've never seen you play obviously, but for me, the answer was in the bottom lip placement. IIIA works way better for me, and if I don't get my lower lip inside the cup (mouthpiece resting outside of the bottom lip on the skin) the mouthpiece slides down and my IIIA starts turning into a ill-functioning IIIB.

Trumpet players obsess over the top lip placement, which I'm sure for some is an issue. However, the bottom lip, for me, was may more problematic.

Getting the lower lip more in the mouthpiece also caused the placement of my top lip to move up on it's own, FWIW.

Faddis does this perfectly. He gets that lower lip way up in there.

http://youtu.be/hhhC2RhPuNg?t=2m57s
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Mike, for weighing in. What's interesting is that whether I play with the lower or higher placement, my IIIB pivot doesn't change--push down to ascend, push up to descend. If I tried to play as a IIIA, I would need to reverse the pivot, yes? BTW: What planet did Jon Faddis come from?
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, the pivot would need to change.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:

Getting the lower lip more in the mouthpiece also caused the placement of my top lip to move up on it's own, FWIW.


Man, that really helped me! I tried it on my warmup, and my set feels like it does when things are "good"! Thanks, Mike!!

BTW, I think you can see Brad Goode do this quite clearly in this video (which is my go-to warmup now). His set looks amazing.


Link


PS the Faddis vid is great, so clear to see what you mean, and his sound is impeccable!!

Best,
Mike
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bach_again wrote:
Mike Sailors wrote:

Getting the lower lip more in the mouthpiece also caused the placement of my top lip to move up on it's own, FWIW.


Man, that really helped me! I tried it on my warmup, and my set feels like it does when things are "good"! Thanks, Mike!!

BTW, I think you can see Brad Goode do this quite clearly in this video (which is my go-to warmup now). His set looks amazing.


Link


PS the Faddis vid is great, so clear to see what you mean, and his sound is impeccable!!

Best,
Mike


I took a lesson with him last summer, and he's got the horn figured out. He's got a really intense, focused sound that spins like crazy. It's really something to hear in person!

Maybe he'll chime in here.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
JoshMizruchi wrote:
Rich, didn't you say you were a IVA on trombone in a post before? Did you decide to slip your placement back up or did it just change naturally?

Actually, when I was at my wits end and my trumpet-playing days appeared to be over, Doc told me I was a IV on trombone. Today I am convinced he did that because he knew that I would be excited about playing again and would be starting with a clean slate, in a manner of speaking.

Doug Elliott and Dave Wilken and several others watched me play bass trumpet through a transparent mouthpiece some 25 or so years later and said I was definitely IIIB, no two ways about it.

A regular IV and a IIIB use the identical pivot, and my placement was always low, so I think Doc was trying to help me heal the "mental scars" as he called them until I was confident on another brass instrument. He may have planned to tell me that down the road, but he died in '88 or '89.

Anyway, he told me (several times) the story of Johnny Mandel and how he took a detour on trombone and bass trumpet before coming back to the trumpet years later. In my case, I spent the years from '81 through '96 healing the mental scars and came back to trumpet (very slowly) with the ability to double on trumpet and valve trombone (bass trumpet).

I am 100% positive Doc would be thrilled that I am taking those same kind of baby steps learning tuba. I've been doing my Pivot Stabilizer on tuba using my IIIB pivot and am making progress . . . slowly but sorely as I like to say.


That is a touching story, Rich. Reading the "So you think you have problems" section of the encyclopedia was moving to me. Doc never gave up on his students and gave them advice that held up with science. This is what every teacher should do.

I also appreciate your candor. In light of that, I will share a story of an experience I had that is interesting. When I was in my late teens, a teacher (not my main teacher, thankfully) actually told me if I didn't switch to a downstream embouchure I would never be successful, because upstream embouchures did not work. I was crushed, but I actually tried to change, by moving my placement up. I sounded like a middle school kid who didn't practice. I have large front upper teeth which made the switch basically impossible. That's actually part of how I got into Reinhardt, I googled "upstream embouchure" and found some information on the Pivot System.

I guess after that experience it was a little strange to me to see downstreamers want to be upstream. I was the opposite for a time. I guess the grass is greener on the other side. I think Doc was right, that you should use what you have, and just try to make it better.
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revmklyons
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I switched from 3A to IV all of my life, since I was in beginner band. i knew I was doing something different sometimes, but didn't know it was wrong or what exactly I was doing.

It worked for me for a long time until I was about 21 and then it fell apart. I didn't know what happened, and everyone just thought I was crazy and it was in my head.

I started back playing about 6 years ago. I have had lessons with Rich and Doug Elliot. While playing with both of them I was a 3A no question. But I would always run into problems, and I had a quiver of unknown origin that came and went mysteriously.

I was ready to give up again about 2 years ago, and decided to go the other direction. I have been playing IV for a while now, and it works a lot better, even though I still have issues from time to time. My bottom jaw wants to recede on initial attacks, causing a myriad of issues. I just have to slow down, reset, and work through it.

I was unable to play anything before, I play in my community band now and with my students.

There have been times in my career when i thought i had it all figured out, and would be elated, I have even posted about it. And then the next day it would suck again.

Now when that happens I just start slowly again, making sure that I am setting up correctly, not tensing up too much, not too much forward tongue pressure, not receding my jaw, not pivoting backwards, etc. I go back to air attacks to line it all up... this helps and after a while it will all level out. The biggest thing for me is not freaking out if something weird is going on at first.

I am extremely susceptible to lip swelling, and if I eat a lot of salty foods I can tell my lips are swollen! I also have the tendency to play way too long without taking breaks, so I have to keep check on that.

All of this is to say pick one and go with it. And then if after a while it is not working, try the other. but eventually pick one and stick with it.

K
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello All -- I want to resurrect this thread, which I started some time ago. Thanks again to everyone for your help. Two comments from replies stick out at me as I re-read the thread:

"It's very frustrating because one day you feel like you can do anything, and the very next day it all falls apart."

"There have been times in my career when i thought i had it all figured out, and would be elated, I have even posted about it. And then the next day it would suck again."

This resonates strongly with me. Again, I'm a IIIB. Sometimes, when all the wheels fall off, I go to the lower placement, and everything comes back. Then, without any signs of it coming, the wheels fall off with the lower placement and come back on with the higher placement. It's weird and extremely frustrating.

Here's a piece of information I want to add, wondering if this might garner further insights from you. Regardless of how well or poorly I play, I always have a much better sound with the higher placement. Does that mean that I should stay with the higher placement and work on consistency—that is, learn better how to keep the wheels on in the first place rather than switching placements when they come off?

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our friend Doug once said to me that if you can play as a IIIA *and* as a IIIB, you are better off playing exclusively as a IIIA. I do not remember the context at the time he said that, and I don't know if Doc told him that or if he "channeled" how Doc's teaching would have evolved since Doc left us.

I do know that there have been two guys I have encountered with whom I did not see that possibility who also went to see Doug, and he got them started as IIIA and it turned out to work for them. One of them posts here, maybe he'll disclose his story.

More and more I realize I know less and less . . . must have something to do with age. I used to be so much smarter!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Rich -- Thanks! That's actually very helpful. With no gigs or rehearsals in sight for the next few months due to the pandemic, I've got the time and freedom to fool around with trying a IIIA. I'd appreciate any thoughts about that experiment, especially if Doug want to weigh in!
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