A Daunting Repair?

[Halflip]

I am 'shopping around' a repair/restoration order that no one (so far) wants to take on.

I recently purchased a Mahillon flugelhorn through eBay which has a rather crude repair to the first valve slide tube where it is attached to the first valve cylinder. The top tube curving out from the first valve cylinder and down to the slide tubing must have torn, and someone soldered a flanged tube onto the outside of the cylinder.

I can't fault the seller, because he alluded to the repair and included a picture which clearly showed it. (Frankly, I think I noticed the repair in the pictures, then forgot later when I placed a bid . Luckily, I didn't pay very much for the horn.)

I am hoping that it is possible to do a 'neater' repair without resorting to a flange; I am thinking in terms of new tubing being brazed onto the opening in the cylinder wall.

I have discussed this with Charlie Melk, Charles Hargett at Kanstul, and Mark Metzler, and none of them want to undertake this kind of repair (Mark thought about it, but decided he had too much of a backlog to take on another complicated job). Charlie Melk told me, "In order to do the work, all the tubing needs to come off the section, and any solder completely removed. The silver plating would need to be stripped, then a new tube made and silver-soldered to the casing. The valve would need to be rebuilt because the casing will warp during the high heat part of the job."

Despite the probable expense, I am interested in pursuing this kind of repair if I keep the horn in my collection (I am something of a perfectionist, and I have no expectation of breaking even or making a profit on my horns if and when I sell any of them). Also, the horn plays pretty well.

Charlie Melk suggested another alternative involving the substitution of a completely different valve block. My only concern with this approach is that the horn's bore size is very small -- under 0.400" at the second valve slide -- and I'm not sure how a valve block with a larger bore would affect the playing qualities of the horn.

Does anyone know of another skilled brass technician (besides the ones I've already approached) who might be willing to take on this kind of repair?

[jmichaelhurt]

Give Rich Ita a call.

770-565-9949
richita1@earthlink.net
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[Halflip]

Good thought! I just emailed Mr. Ita today (neglected to mention it in my post).

I used the "biw@brassinstrumentworkshop.com" email address mentioned on his site. Would I get better results using the email address you mention?

[yourbrass]

Mr. Melk knows whereof he speaks.

I had a Calicchio in the shop with cracked braces between the valve casings. That's right - those small silver soldered braces that hold the casings together. After consulting with Robb Stewart, who, BTW is another heavyweight repair man, I decided that the compromise position of soft soldering them was going to be the course of action.

That was one scary repair - I'd never seen a manufacturing defect like this one and the horn was on the line. I managed to do it, and I hope never to see one like it again.

There's real risk when you heat an old valve casing red-hot in order to effect the kind of repair you're wanting done. I don't think I'd take the chance.
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[dacman]

I'm a little confused? You said that you can't find anyone to take this repair on, but you have multiple highly skilled techs giving you advice on how to fix it? Is it that they don't want to/have time, or are their suggestions/cost/schedule not what you want. I ask because the suggestion I'm going to give is likely able to fix it, but like the other highly skilled techs you have already asked, he's only going to fix it the way he feels is best. If it is involved it won't be cheap and it might take a while, but it will be done in way that he can stand behind the work. In any case, I recommend you contact Dan Oberloh. He prides himself in doing repairs that no one else will or can do.

http://www.oberloh.com

Good luck,
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Don Cornelius
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[Halflip]

Thank you for the suggestion, Don.

To clarify, I specified that I wanted the repair done so that it would look like it came from the factory. That means without a flange.

Charlie explained that it could be done (and described how), but said that he didn't want to take on that kind work; neither did Charles Hargett. There might be many reasons for this, such as (a) higher than normal risk that the result would be unsatisfactory (this might be it, based on the reply from 'yourbrass'), (b) cost of the work would far outstrip the value of the horn, (c) this is an atypical, time-consuming procedure that would unduly interrupt the flow of other work in the shop, etc. (I am only guessing.)

Charlie and I have a good specialist/customer relationship; he is currently working on one of my horns, and has done many restorations for me in the past. Perhaps that is why he took the time to explain how the repair might be done even though he did not want to take it on.

I hope this helps clarify things. If Mr. Oberloh would be able and willing to attempt a 'flangeless' repair, I'd certainly like to talk to him.

[dacman]

[lipshurt]

I would go as far as saying the only way to get what you want is to replace the valve cluster...... Or...... Replace the tube a soft solder it in. If you are ok with that then it's fairly easy. I have actually done it once. Some people desk out about not having those tube hard soldered.

Here is what you need to do:

1) have a replacement tube. Some issues there but not impossible
2) cut off the old tube close to the casing and then finish up the job with a dremel type rotary grinder.
3) enlarge the hole in the casing to the size of your replacement tube. The best way to do this is by making a custom reamer. I can show you a picture of the one I made. It was pretty easy. Start with 0-W rod stock and then mill a flute on each side. Would probably work to use a half moon too. Getting the horn secure in a mill or drill press is a bit of a trick. Doable.
4) solder the new tube in there using low temp silver solder. It will be fine. The melting point is high enough that when you solder the slide tube etc it won't melt the casing solder. The casing acts as a heat sync so don't worry about that.
5) if you are careful to not let the new tube protrude into the casing you won't have to hone the casing or anything. Before you solder the tube in there you need to shape the end of the tube so it matched the contour of the inside of the casing. Do that by trial and error. Make sure that it does not stick out at all.

I did all of that in one after noon including making the reamer and heat treating it. I would guess that arepair tech would want about 5 hours of labor
Once you have the reamer it is only about three hours for all of the rest of it. Like anything the first time you do it it takes the longest. If you can find someone who's done it before, they migh be able to do it quicker. I guess some guys might enlarge the hole with a dremel but the reamer is going to perfectly round and better. You want a really tight fit with no gaps. The dremel might be faster for most guys that don't have a mill. If they don't have a mill they at least have a grinder so they could do a half moon. They might not have any heat treatable steel rod, but I bet drill rod would work well enough to use one time.
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[yourbrass]

@lipshurt
I like your solution, sounds logical - one thing though:

"4) solder the new tube in there using low temp silver solder. It will be fine. The melting point is high enough that when you solder the slide tube etc it won't melt the casing solder. The casing acts as a heat sync so don't worry about that."

I have no idea what a Mahillon flugel valve casing looks like, but if you've got a soft solder joint joining two parts (baluster and casing) in the wrong place and it's thin, things could start to let go.

Just a thought.
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Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[jiarby]

Rob Stewart...

[Halflip]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful, helpful replies!

[lipshurt]

The tube will insert into the casing by about .050 or more provided the contour of the end of the tube matches well with the inside of the casing, and its a good tight fit. It will be strong.

I made a whole valve cluster that way from scratch and it was very strong, using low temp silver solder everywhere on the casings. Never had one spot met while solder an adjacent spot.
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[Adam V]

I am 99.93% sure that Robb Stewart will turn you down, not just because of the hassle involved, but because he only works on name-brand horns.
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1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel

Marcinkiewicz E3/3C

[musicalmason1]

Mahillon is a name brand, pretty common in Europe. More well known for their piccs. I've seen a few of their horns, and I liked them. This isn't some Chinese Tso. That said, I wouldn't want to fix it....or even try.
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[Capt.Kirk]

I agree with lipshurt. I did something very similar the only difference is it took me two try's I messed it up the first time around.

If you have to pay someone to do it that is not used to doing this sort of thing then best to just replace the valve assembly.

It should not be that hard to find a donor valve assembly. Keep in mind that what ever the listed bore size is all paths leading in and out of the valve assembly must be smaller then that since bore size is measured off of external tubing.

So if you find a Flugel with a bore of say .413 for instance the diameter inside of the tubing coming and going from the valves is going to be .020-.030 smaller then that so the the id of the external tubing will fit over the od of the tubing coming out of the valve assembly.
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[lipshurt]

Wow
That is 100 percent wrong.
The tube soldered into the casing is inner slide tube, or in other words tubing with an ID the same as the bore size. The tube that connects to that is outer slide tube which is .020 to .030 bigger than the bore size. All horns are like this. No horn is made the way you describe it.
Ouch captain......
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[Capt.Kirk]

Can't help myself on this one. I have never seen a trumpet that did not have a "Brand" name on it. I have seen Generic Beer in Ga.! It was a white can that said "Beer" in black letter's. Only time I have ever seen that but never have I personalty ran across a trumpet with nothing on it any place. It might not have been the name of the company that made the horn but they always had a name on them. So how do you get a " No Brand Trumpet"????

If you just mean that the name n the horn is not the name of the company that manufactured it then wow every trumpet Kanstul,Blessing,B&S,HG,Gezen,Allied has ever made for anyone are all Generic no name brand trumpets. So that would include Flip Oaks and Burbank and Zuess, Lazer, Canadian Brass and a lot of others that.

It would seem to me that using wording like name brand was a way of not sounding like a bigot, racist, xenophobic of Asian made products etc.....Basically anything not made in North America or Western Europe. Might as well have made a disguise out of clear glass panels as thinly vield as that was.

Likewise if using a donor valve assembly to build a trumpet = Franken Horn then everything that has been built by Osmuns,Taylor,Harrelson,DQ, and anyone else that does not make their own valve assemblies or bells or leadpipes in house are all Frankenhorns. Come to think of it it was a while before Bach was making his own valve assemblies he used I think something like 3 different brands maybe more including Blessing so I guess that makes early Bach's Franken Horns as well.

In fact any obsolete trumpet that has been repaired even if done by some big name tech with non-oem parts would by default be a Franken-Horn if anyone knew. IF they do not know is it any less a Franken Horn?

I have yet to see a white trumpet with black lettering that said Trumpet on it! LOL

Maybe we will get a Tech that will only work on World Class Trumpets next? Wonder if that would mean no Bach's? LOL

Better hope no one over buffs their Bach because if the signiture was not on it maybe no one would work on it thinking it was not a "Name Brand" trumpet. LOL
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[LittleRusty]

[yourbrass]

[gbshelbymi]

This fellow has before and after restoration pics that aren't to be believed. A magician. http://www.dqscustomshop.com/
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