Thoughts on Selmer Paris, K-Modifed trumpets

[king leopardi]

I have several of the Selmer Paris trumpets that are referred to in the Selmer catalogs (beginning around 1938) as either the No. 60 or (in the case of those with the first valve triggers) No. 60T. They're often referred to these as "Selmer Grands Prix" or just "Selmer Paris" trumpets.

Like a lot of other people, I have been a bit confused about the meaning of the numbers on the underside of the receiver (19, 20, 21, 22, etc.)
In the 1956 Selmer catalog, there is a note about these numbers: "A trumpet's performance is affected not only by its bore, but by the length, diameter, and taper of its leader pipe. Thus, because of the differences in their leader pipes, you will find a distinct difference in playing characteristics between Nos. 19A and 24A or 20 and 24B, even though their bores are identical."

Next to this, there is a chart showing bore specifications (note that by 1956, you don't see the 21, 22, or 23):
Model No. 59; Nominal Designation medium; Bore No. 19A; Bore (Tubing I.D.) .458"
Model No. 59; Nominal Designation medium-large; Bore No. 24A; Bore (Tubing I.D.) .458"
Model No. 60; Nominal Designation medium; Bore No. 20; Bore (Tubing I.D.) .458"
Model No. 60; Nominal Designation medium-large; Bore No. 24B; Bore (Tubing I.D.) .458"
Model No. 60; Nominal Designation large; Bore No. 25; Bore (Tubing I.D.) .468"

The note about the length and taper from the 1956 catalog got me curious about the length of the leader pipes of the Model No. 60 trumpets that I own. These all span from around 1939-1956. None of these are the Modified K models. And as it turns out, I have at least one sample of each, so I got out the ruler.

These measurements are all done from the receiver joint to the tuning slide joint:

The leader pipes of the Selmer 19, 20, 21 and 22 measure 6.625 inches.
The leader pipe of the Selmer 23 measures 7.5 inches.
The leader pipes of the Selmer 24 and 25 measures 7.375 inches.
Note that between numbers 19-22 and 23-25, there is a gap of approximately .375 inches.

Since I have a handful of the balanced models, I'll go ahead and throw in those measurements:
The 23A is 7.125 inches in length, with the 24A coming in just a bit longer at 7.125 inches.

Since several of these share the same leader pipe length, I am wondering if the numeric designations are making a reference to the taper of the leader pipe as well as the bore. The next step would be checking the bore sizes on all of these for comparison.

As a final aside, in searching through the TH forums, I found a post by lipshurt regarding and article on the Modified K model from the 1960 London Selmer catalog (K-Modified, A New Trumpet by Selmer Paris). What particularly jumped out at me was this: "The larger the bore, the more critical the mouthpipe taper becomes for the player. An error of just .005" on the mouthpipe or bell is enough to spoil a big horn. So the same problem had a different answer for each Selmer bore. Finding the answers took time, but the reactions we finally got from the boys in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York show that we did it. We had a hard time getting those experimental instruments away from the studio men once they tried them! We worked over the entire instrument in this way, almost thousandth by thousandth. Valve slides were cut to produce the combination that was easiest for the player on the job. Now that we've got the right combination, we're matching it down to the last .001" on every K-modified job that leaves the shop."

I know that the conventional accepted reason for the creation of the K-Modified model is that the receiver was changed to accept a standard mouthpiece. However, it's interesting that is not mentioned here. I kind of wonder if it was created to standardize the trumpet from its many different variations.

ANYWAY--I do apologize. I usually don't make these long-winded posts. But I thought that anyone who might be a fellow Selmer Paris enthusiast would find this interesting.

Dave Brewer

[GordonH]

Hello Dave,

I have owned a 23A standard and a 19A balanced.

What you are saying is very interesting, but I can't comment really not having played enough of these.

I thought I would just say that the non K modified instruments were still being sold in Europe after the K mod ones came out and those non K modified horns have the conventional modern receiver gap etc. From the ones I have seen.

I still have my 19A. I am sure its .450 bore based on the catalogue and how I measured it. I remember thinking this was the same bore as the modern Schilke piccolo trumpet. The bell shape is not far off the Schilke D trumpet bell.

Incidentally, there may be a difference in leadpipe length depending where instruments were sold. I know that some of the NY Bach trumpets sold to UK customers had longer leadpipes (.4 of an inch or so) to help them play better to our tuning. I am not sure if that would have mattered though as it was only a couple of hertz. Obviously Bach thought it did.
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[GeorgeB]

I own a 1952 Selmer Paris 21 and have had a hard time finding much information about it so I find this thread quite interesting.
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GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet

[king leopardi]

[king leopardi]

[GeorgeB]

[fabiopereirabr]

I own a 1939 20B, love it!! The mpc receiver bothered me a little, always thinking if the horn would play better with a proper mouthpiece.. now I play it with a mount vernon 7c and forgot about the gap issue..
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Fabio

[king leopardi]

I use a pretty old Parduba 5 mouthpiece with mine and really like the sound!