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How to teach playing with power (Volume)


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CMCZOWNDM
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:56 am    Post subject: How to teach playing with power (Volume) Reply with quote

My 16 year old daughter has been playing trumpet for 6 years and does well. She's not a superstar but she holds her own against the local competition here in Maryland. She has no problem playing softly but when she plays dynamics, her contrast is stuck between mp and F. I just cant seem to get her to get to the FF (I'm not talking about blasting, I just mean good solid volume). She moved up to 1st chair this year in her high school band so she is playing solo's. While they sound good and she plays with accuracy, I can't get the dynamics out of her. To make matters worse, she is in marching band and will have several solos this coming year in the show if she maintains her seat, which I believe she will. Any suggestions on how to get her to get the "outside power" playing going? I have told her she needs to push a lot of air (which is how I do it from years of marching drum corps). I'm just a frustrated dad that has been able to get her to do all the other essentials to make her a really good player for her age. I am worried the lack of power playing and dynamic contrast is going to keep her from doing better on auditions etc if I can't fix it. Thanks for your help.
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post. Anything exercise that open up the sound are good for getting power which leads to a greater dynamic range:

Leadpipe Buzzing
Pedal Tones
Bell tones
Crescendo Exercises pushing the loudest and fullest sound

Other Ideas:

Breathing Exercises such as the breathing gym should provide a deeper breath and more ease of play

I’ve heard using the PETE can expand dynamic range

Tonguing exercises may open the aperture

Playing piano or as soft as possible so both ends of the spectrum are as good as possible

Hope this helps! I had aand have a similar problem. While I can play FF it kills my endurance. So that’s the next battle. I particularly recommend the breathing gym and crescendo exercises.
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think how well she plays, tech skills, articulation, etc., is more important than how loud she plays. Like any aspect of playing some things come with time and experience. It sounds like she may be better suited to a cornet than trumpet. Just a thought.
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reasons she has earned 1st chair at her school have nothing to do with power. She does not need it, the instrument has plenty of projection for whatever amount of sound she can produce now. In raw decibels, even “very soft” on a trumpet is “extremely loud” on most woodwind instruments. Let her develop as a musician instead of as a trumpet player (yes, in many cases the two are mutually exclusive), and she will develop more projection naturally in time.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
The reasons she has earned 1st chair at her school have nothing to do with power. She does not need it, the instrument has plenty of projection for whatever amount of sound she can produce now. In raw decibels, even “very soft” on a trumpet is “extremely loud” on most woodwind instruments. Let her develop as a musician instead of as a trumpet player (yes, in many cases the two are mutually exclusive), and she will develop more projection naturally in time.


Exactly!!

Don't ruin your daughter's playing. Projection is NOT a product of blowing lots of air, wind power, pedal tones, or any of that. Sounds like if she has a good sound, control and musician ship she will figure this out in her own time. Resonance is the key. You don't learn how to play with a truly resonant tone by shoving air thru the horn. Check this video... Jim has some great advice.


Link


Best,
Mike
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As others have said, I don't recommend pushing her to play louder. It'll come with time and development. The qualities you described that she already has are much more important and frankly, a lot rarer in younger developing players.

That said, the Part One and Part Two Exercises throughout the Lessons in Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach to Daily Practice for Trumpet book will develop power, along with range, endurance and tone. But they must be used and practiced correctly, or it would be better they not be used at all.

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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: How to teach playing with power (Volume) Reply with quote

CMCZOWNDM wrote:
I have told her she needs to push a lot of air


This is extremely harmful language and will only result in a spread, overly aggressive sound that is not desired by anyone. Just like it hurts to push your voice to scream, it will be the same result on trumpet.

I agree with the pp < ff > pp longtones, and trying to move the boundaries with good sound. I think 12 counts at 50bpm works nicely for these.
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nonethewiser
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't necessarily disagree with the "it will come" but I will provide my own take on this.

Power, or "presence" is something that I had trouble figuring out for a long time. This is the Sachs/Smith/et al. kind of presence which is what I think you are really after rather than "power/decibels/pushing". The deep, thick, resonant (like bach_again states), brilliant tone.

How we achieve this kind of sound is something that: 1) needs to be experienced live; 2) is cultivated over the course of a lifetime; 3) shouldn't be rushed but should be addressed on a daily basis. I explain each of these below.

1) I have seen many a student go hear their first professional live brass concert and come back the next lesson playing significantly more "professional" than before. We need to be exposed to how a sound works in a large acoustic space by great players so we can better emulate. Recordings get part of the way, but there are shortcomings.

2) Like a great vocalist, a sound is cultivated over a lifetime. We are constantly evolving and we shouldn't expect greatness immediately, but we should be keeping greatness at the forefront of our thought.

3) How do we actually cultivate it? Like most are saying, it can't be rushed. However we need to approach the trumpet more "perfectly" everyday. If we are constantly recreating our past selves, then we make no progress. The biggest thing that inhibits this more present sound is the release of the air and the unnecessary tension we bring to playing.

I suggest learning to take a full relaxed breath and just letting it out. Not "pushing" it out, just like a big sigh (without the vocalization). Then bring the trumpet to the mix and do the same thing...keep the chops nice and loose and let that full breath out into the trumpet. Then do it with sound, but chops still loose. Don't worry about the sound, it will even out after a couple of tries.

This will help achieve the "release" of the air which is essential. The rest is about hearing the professional sound she experienced live. This will "control" the air flow...we don't really need to hold back on the trumpet. Should be easy like blowing out a candle

That being said, it sound like she's doing well...so no frustrations necessary.

Finally: Find her the best teacher!!
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nonethewiser wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree with the "it will come" but I will provide my own take on this.

Power, or "presence" is something that I had trouble figuring out for a long time. This is the Sachs/Smith/et al. kind of presence which is what I think you are really after rather than "power/decibels/pushing". The deep, thick, resonant (like bach_again states), brilliant tone.

How we achieve this kind of sound is something that: 1) needs to be experienced live; 2) is cultivated over the course of a lifetime; 3) shouldn't be rushed but should be addressed on a daily basis. I explain each of these below.

1) I have seen many a student go hear their first professional live brass concert and come back the next lesson playing significantly more "professional" than before. We need to be exposed to how a sound works in a large acoustic space by great players so we can better emulate. Recordings get part of the way, but there are shortcomings.

2) Like a great vocalist, a sound is cultivated over a lifetime. We are constantly evolving and we shouldn't expect greatness immediately, but we should be keeping greatness at the forefront of our thought.

3) How do we actually cultivate it? Like most are saying, it can't be rushed. However we need to approach the trumpet more "perfectly" everyday. If we are constantly recreating our past selves, then we make no progress. The biggest thing that inhibits this more present sound is the release of the air and the unnecessary tension we bring to playing.

I suggest learning to take a full relaxed breath and just letting it out. Not "pushing" it out, just like a big sigh (without the vocalization). Then bring the trumpet to the mix and do the same thing...keep the chops nice and loose and let that full breath out into the trumpet. Then do it with sound, but chops still loose. Don't worry about the sound, it will even out after a couple of tries.

This will help achieve the "release" of the air which is essential. The rest is about hearing the professional sound she experienced live. This will "control" the air flow...we don't really need to hold back on the trumpet. Should be easy like blowing out a candle

That being said, it sound like she's doing well...so no frustrations necessary.

Finally: Find her the best teacher!!


Approach the trumpet more perfectly every day. - brilliant!!!

Great post, thanks!!

Mike
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sing loud, play loud.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CMCZOWNDM,

I think that your question is very reasonable.

I have worked with many players (a higher percentage were female) who think that loud playing is "ugly," or some other negative adjective. So, sometimes, there is some psychology involved in getting them to expand beyond a certain sonic comfort zone.

The simplest exercise to expand volume is a crescendo, done on a G in the staff, held for 9 or 10 counts (walking tempo). Do this as part of a daily warmup, but not at the very beginning of the warmup.

Have her start at pp (she will be good at this part!) and gradually get as loud as possible by the last count. Be very precise in the counting. At first, she won't get very loud. But if you play these exercises with her, she will eventually start to get the idea. It may take a few weeks, or even months.

The goal, of course, is to get louder while keeping a good resonant sound.

As she gets stronger, add the next couple of higher notes, A, B, and C.

This needs to be done every day, but it will only take a minute or two of her practice time.

This works. Good luck!

Jeff

(note - this Crescendo exercise is on page 131 of The Balanced Embouchure)
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you are talking about here is dynamic range which grows alongside all other aspects of trumpet. Don't confuse power with volume. She's got all the power she'll ever need, she just hasn't learned to control it.

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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
CMCZOWNDM,

I think that your question is very reasonable.

I have worked with many players (a higher percentage were female) who think that loud playing is "ugly," or some other negative adjective. So, sometimes, there is some psychology involved in getting them to expand beyond a certain sonic comfort zone.

The simplest exercise to expand volume is a crescendo, done on a G in the staff, held for 9 or 10 counts (walking tempo). Do this as part of a daily warmup, but not at the very beginning of the warmup.

Have her start at pp (she will be good at this part!) and gradually get as loud as possible by the last count. Be very precise in the counting. At first, she won't get very loud. But if you play these exercises with her, she will eventually start to get the idea. It may take a few weeks, or even months.

The goal, of course, is to get louder while keeping a good resonant sound.

As she gets stronger, add the next couple of higher notes, A, B, and C.

This needs to be done every day, but it will only take a minute or two of her practice time.

This works. Good luck!

Jeff

(note - this Crescendo exercise is on page 131 of The Balanced Embouchure)


I'll add to this. I have kids tell me on a scale of 1-10 what volume they think they are playing. It's just an awareness thing.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP is not going to like this but... The issue is you are trying to 'fix' her.

This is your daughter's playing, not yours. Let her develop as a player, and when she is ready, she will be playing with more projection (not louder) as she is able to.

The word frustrated was used. I would gently suggest that now is the time to find a new teacher. We all teach to the best we can, and there are times that we need to recognise it is time to move a student on - to a different person who may have either a different sill set (jazz etc) a reputation for helping with particular issues (a chop doc) or just a new person after some years of the same teaching (like your Dad) to say the same thing differently.

All that said, I have a kid who plays very softly. VERY softly. It stems from not wanting to disturb his older siblings study and has resulted in his production being quite unbalanced - too much tension to get too little air to create a sound. He is working on his, but still has a bit of a bock as to how he should sound.

Patience and encouragement are needed.

cheers

Andy
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could be that her Dad wants her to play with more volume, but nobody else is asking her to do the same. I would leave her alone. I would only address the issue if she were to bring it up.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CONTROLLED long tones from softer to FF.

I had good results in high school by playing Arban exercise 3 on page 127 slowly and at FF, holding each note at about a slow half-note.

Give her plenty of resting time after playing this.

Page numbers may vary depending on your edition so I am referring to the exercise using this as reference: http://www.el-atril.com/partituras/Metodos/Complete%20Conservatory%20Method%20for%20Trumpet.pdf
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CMCZOWNDM
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone
Thank you so much for your words of wisdom. I REALLY appreciate it. I have given her the first two exercises on Claude Gordon to do already (a few weeks ago) and it seems to be helping along with using a metronome and building from p - FF. We have also been doing breathing exercises. I have taken her to see several professionals play live, which like suggested, really motivates her. Next Sunday, we're going to see Chris Botti play at the Kennedy Center (again) which she is thrilled about.
As a Dad, I want the best for her. It is not me pushing her to play louder...it is her asking me how to do it. We have a great student/teacher relationship. With my oldest, I couldn't teach him too much. With her, she's pretty easy and has been for years. I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet and get her a different teacher though...its kind of our thing. I'm divorced and she lives with her mom so several nights a week, we facetime and do lessons and then we do them live on the weekends when she comes to see me. Trust me, SHE is the one who is doing the pushing. She gets mad if I'm not up to it.
Also, while there are many on here who are way above my level of playing and teaching, I've done my share with everything from beginners to full time professional players. I just haven't came across this particular problem yet and wanted to see what the group suggests.
Again, I am thrilled with everyone's suggestions and humbled to be given suggestions by a group as great as yourselves. I consider myself one who is open minded, willing to try new things and forever a student, which is why I ask this question and will have more to come over time I am sure.
Thanks
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool, sorry some of us (myself perhaps leading the way) were pretty tough on you.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, the easiest and least technical way to work on projection (and by extension, and less importantly - volume) is to do a little practicing and playing in a large space.

The point is not to "fill the whole space," with your sound (although that can happen if things are working well) - or to "play loud" it's to play to the person or seat or row in the back of the space. You don't "push" the air out of the horn, you relax and just sort of "project" it out there.

Projection is more a result of proper relaxation, minimal tension, and good use of air. Blowing "too hard" or "forcefully" can create tension and inhibit relaxation - and thus, not result in a good sound that projects.

I'd try to find a large space and play something like long tones, or something easy and lyrical (I like the Concone studies, myself) and try to reduce tension in playing. That together with good use of air will probably result in a little more projection. Those are good things in playing trumpet, whether you're trying to play loud, soft, or anything.

Frankly, this is a somewhat difficult thing to explain and work on using words on the internet. But, maybe some of these general thoughts can help.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Projection and loudness are not necessarily the same.
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