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Type IV fatigue


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elgin
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Type IV fatigue Reply with quote

Doc says that a Type IV, with frequent rests, can "play all day". That's sort of where I am. I'm a IV. When I play long sections with no break, I'm beat. But, after a minute or two break, I'm back for a while.

Question: Why is that true for a IV and not for the other types?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that they use so little top lip and so much bottom lip that swelling is not such a huge issue as with the guys who use mostly top lip.

As a low-placement IIIB I can feel totally destroyed on a gig yet somehow have the reserve to make it through to the end and even surprise myself at times.

Too bad that isn't always the case, though . . . sometimes I get good and beat and I'm good and beat with no chance of a second wind.

I hate when that happens.
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Mac Gollehon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Type 4 embouchure can be subject to malfunction followed by collapse and fast recovery after a short break 5 seconds to 30 seconds or just a corrective reset. Malfunction caused by careless setup procedures such as poor teeth alignment causing an unstable platform must be corrected. When teeth alignment is faulty then lip alignment problems will soon follow causing a cutoff of airflow to the top lip that becomes pinned between mouthpiece and teeth. Then the “knee jerk” reaction is to increase mouthpiece pressure to simulate more seal. Then follows more lip intrusion inside the cup causing more blocked air column issues. The attempt at compression has now been totally compromised. If the player feels any of these items sneaking up during performance best to reset the embouchure as soon as musically permitable. Sometimes a Type 4 can get “locked” out there with the jaw presenting problems as well.At all times all registers must be playable and musically accessible,not just the upper register. Again reset when possible. Also attention is needed to ensure you are using a tongue type from the pivot manual that is low enough to permit airflow and do the jaw retention drill so a receding jaw is never the culprit for collapse. Many times a recede jaw plays a part for many Type 4 breakdowns. When things are going well for a Type 4 extremely amazing things can be done but always be ready to remove the horn from your lips and reset correctly before problems happen.
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Mac Gollehon
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had run out before I could mention that none of the details I just mentioned in post above mean much if the breath control is not spot on. Also the degree of invert of the lips originating in grip from what Doc called the Fu Manchu or tobacco juice corners needs to be intact in all registers at all times is vital. A lot to think about yes but when a Type 4 is hooked up all the way it can be scary.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've found that to be the case for me as well.

Remember that IV's are more sensitive to swelling than most other types and thus will probably need short breaks to be their best, at least initially. Once that swelling sets in, you're gonna need a break. The key, I think for a IV is to build your endurance to the point that the swelling kicks in later and later. You're going to be sensitive to swelling, but if you get strong enough to the point the swelling wouldn't really start to kick in until many hours of playing have passed, you're going to fare better endurance-wise. Fortunately, IV's recuperate quickly from the swelling. A couple bars of rest could be all you'll need sometimes.

Developing this endurance is not always an easy task and can take time. Gigs where there is little to no rest may be more difficult for a IV, at least at first. But most people have a challenge with that kind of playing, though they may experience it in different ways. Otherwise, circus gigs wouldn't be so revered for their extremely long and intense playing requirements. IIIB's can play past fatigue easier than IV's and play with a big sound pretty easily, but then sometimes they just get even more tired than a IV who is tired. Kind of like how IV's can focus too much on their upper register and their playing suffers accordingly. Things coming easily is a double-edged sword.

Also, a lot of it depends on what you train yourself to do. If you're playing a certain gig for a few weeks and practicing intelligently, you'll probably start to get used to it after a while. That's also a factor.
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elgin
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may mention that it is my bottom lip that swells. Is that your experience as well?
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me? I'm not sure honestly, I think it's both for me. But the bottom lip can take a lot more abuse than the top lip. I'm pretty sure that's true for most players.

Also, if your lower lip is swelling but not so much the upper, it means you're playing with more pressure on your lower lip, which is a good sign.
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both Doc and Dave Sheetz told me that the bulk of the weight/pressure should always be on the bottom lip, and that the top lip is used as a "trump card" for the upper register. I'm a IIIB, but I suspect that this advice applies to all types. I think that I also recall Doc telling me that typically (note that word!) a IIIB can outlast a IV, BUT, once a IIIB is totally exhausted, he/she is done for the day/night, whereas, a IV, if able to take frequent rests, can go on forever. Am I remembering that correctly?
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Type3B wrote:
Both Doc and Dave Sheetz told me that the bulk of the weight/pressure should always be on the bottom lip, and that the top lip is used as a "trump card" for the upper register. I'm a IIIB, but I suspect that this advice applies to all types. I think that I also recall Doc telling me that typically (note that word!) a IIIB can outlast a IV, BUT, once a IIIB is totally exhausted, he/she is done for the day/night, whereas, a IV, if able to take frequent rests, can go on forever. Am I remembering that correctly?


Sounds correct on all counts to me.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Type3B wrote:
Both Doc and Dave Sheetz told me that the bulk of the weight/pressure should always be on the bottom lip, and that the top lip is used as a "trump card" for the upper register. I'm a IIIB, but I suspect that this advice applies to all types. I think that I also recall Doc telling me that typically (note that word!) a IIIB can outlast a IV, BUT, once a IIIB is totally exhausted, he/she is done for the day/night, whereas, a IV, if able to take frequent rests, can go on forever. Am I remembering that correctly?


Now, this does not take into account what Doc called the "second wind." As a IIIB, there have been times when the gig wasn't over but I thought my chops were finished. Suddenly, this thing has come along and my chops have felt invincible.

Unfortunately, it isn't anything I can always count on, but when that happens I can put my horn away after the gig feeling like I could play another gig no problem.

Doc used to give us stuff to get us into the second wind during practice, and I would have to go digging through my stuff to see if I can find it. I'm pretty sure his Endurance Drills A and B were part of that, though.
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "second wind" is a fascinating phenomenon. Besides playing trumpet, I'm also a runner, and I have definitely experienced the second wind in that regard. I wonder if perhaps the second wind is a psychological as well as physical phenomenon. I ran a marathon many years ago during which, at mile 24, I felt physically like I was going to collapse, but I kept pushing and, miraculously, the last mile seemed almost easy. I think that the physical second wind came from mentally believing that I could, and would, finish the race. Perhaps this is not exactly related to trumpet playing, but I do believe that there is a similarity. Dave Sheetz often told me that many, perhaps most, of my trumpet playing problems were in my mind. I've come to believe that he is right.
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Mac Gollehon
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Type IV will improve thier endurance if a conscious effort is made to keep jaw forward and open to avoid teeth closure that causes blocked air column. With this embouchure Type 4 players that recede the jaw complain about being strong for a long period and then sudden collapse. They probably started with forward jaw and open teeth but as fatigue in jaw and masseter muscle set in the jaw went to a closed and receded position. Even if only minimal it matters a lot. The forward jaw produces a teeth aperture that allow both inverted lips to receive air column as the invert keeps the lips just touching. Bottom lip is touching top lip as top lip is vibrating. The upholding of the position of bottom lip determines what part of top lip vibrates and it will vibrate wherever the bottom lip creates the base or leg of the tripod Doc spoke of. Any Type IV that takes the time and effort to work this out and stay disciplined throughout the practice and correct any problems before they develop will get rid of embouchure fatigue by getting rid of the receding jaw and use breath control. Then this gets rid of tension in the opposing muscle groups that stretch or sneer,smile as these are the beginnings of too much mouthpiece pressure and thinning of lips mashed into teeth.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent point, Mac. Your post just got me thinking about a question I've always meant to ask but never got around to. The question is, how does the type IV get the jaw forward? Here are some things I know that are Reinhardt-approved:

-Jaw retention drill
-Lip Buzzing
-Compression drills
-Avoid strain

Anything I'm missing, guys?
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Mac Gollehon
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Josh yes to the jaw retention drill. For a true IV buzzing routines are usually limited to in the encyclopedia to #1. #2. #5 and#6 but don’t overdo. Some IV. Types chose not to practice buzzing but at very least form to buzz but not continue to the buzz. Pencil drill in encyclopedia is good. In answer to how to set jaw forward bring jaw forward until bottom teeth edges are parallel or slightly forward of top teeth edges with a teeth opening that allows the outer red of top and bottom lip inverted evenly and face each other occupying equal space within the fixed teeth aperture. The tongue can help you detect if your bottom teeth are parallel or forward position of top teeth. Doc recommended for me to use tongue type 7. Worked well. However I also got same results with tongue type 1 and tongue type 5 which is very widely used. Point is you can use the tongue initially to find your forward jaw position. Then to maintain that position.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzzing helps me a lot. But I don't do it quite every day. Still, I have to do it at least every other day, or my corners get really flabby.

Buzzing the melodies helps me more than the buzz-play-buzz routine, personally. Although that one is a game-changer for some players.
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Mac Gollehon
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Josh. Doc instructed to me that a true Type IV should not perform the buzz-play-buzz routine. If the buzz play buzz routine works for you than by all means do it but also consider that you might not really be a true Type IV
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't really work for me. I tried it years ago. It didn't mess me up or anything, but it didn't help, either. I do better when I don't play and buzz together, plus buzzing only one pitch at a time doesn't firm up my embouchure quite enough. "Walking in" is another drill IV's should never do and that I can tell wouldn't work for me even without doing it! Funny how that works.
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elgin
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac
Changing a few parameters has helped:
1. Jaw position and pressure. Since my lower teeth slant forward a little, the pressure sensation on top and bottom teeth is different. I.E., without feeling it, I've been pressing too much on the lower lip and the upper teeth have not been getting enough pressure on the "leg". I'm putting a little more pressure on top and pushing the jaw forward a little. Feels good.
2. Top lip engagement. I've been consciously engaging the top lip more. Instead of letting the top lip be passive, I've been slightly exaggerating the pucker in the top lip.

Range is better. I think endurance is a little better... time will tell.

One surprising additional benefit is that my accuracy has improved, especially just above the staff. It's like I can feel the note placement better.

thanks for all the comments
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two side notes on endurance from another type IV. Doc talked about “reclaiming the bottom lip” on each and every inhalation. This applied to all types. And, mastering the “physical slump” during a brief rest in the music. As little as a few beats. I get stronger as the night goes on with these brief rests and bottom lip reclamations. When I’m physically beat I even concentrate more on the complete physical slump than on the music before and after. It has an amazing effect to get through the song and the night.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrumpetMan17 wrote:
Two side notes on endurance from another type IV. Doc talked about “reclaiming the bottom lip” on each and every inhalation. This applied to all types. And, mastering the “physical slump” during a brief rest in the music. As little as a few beats. I get stronger as the night goes on with these brief rests and bottom lip reclamations. When I’m physically beat I even concentrate more on the complete physical slump than on the music before and after. It has an amazing effect to get through the song and the night.


Actually, the term Doc used was "retrieving" the lower lip, but it's basically what you described. Thanks for the reminder.
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