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IIIA/IIIB


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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:51 am    Post subject: IIIA/IIIB Reply with quote

I recently had a lesson with Doug Elliott as he rolled through NYC last week. My lesson with him finally tied together some Reinhardt concepts that I have always had a hard time grasping.

First off, about 15 minutes into the lesson (and after biffing a track exercise starting on High G), he confidently told me that I was a IIIA and that I was pulling down to play that G instead of pushing up. Naturally, my mind was blown because for the last couple of years, I've been playing as a IIIB.

Now, ever since I hurt myself in 2009, I've struggled with consistency in my lead trumpet range, namely, Eb and above. Some nights I felt like Superman, other nights I really had to work to make the gig. Now I'm starting to realize that when it was working, I was working my correct pivot and when I wasn't I was pulling down for the high register and pushing up for the low range.

Immediately after Doug told me I was a IIIA, i played the exercise again and I was able to play the track routine from low G to high G with an ease I haven't felt since before I hurt myself. Also, the octaves were in tune.

I hesitated to post after the lesson. I wanted to see if I could carry over the feeling of the lesson to on the job. Needless to say, the IIIB pivot is what was causing my inconsistency. I never felt as strong as I do now.

Thinking back to before I hurt myself, when I struggled, I always had the issue of the mouthpiece drifting downwards. I never really figured that out, but now I'm thinking that it was moving down because I was pivoting incorrectly (pulling down when I should have been pushing up).

I'm really noticing that it's the small range movements (both up and down) in the middle to middle high register where I have to pay attention to pulling down/pushing up. The extremes seem to take care of themselves if I take care of business in the staff.

Anyway, I figured some of the guys that I've taken lessons from would like to hear this. Now I understand how confusing it can be to type switch. Now that I've picked one, it seems like the possibilities are endless.

Also, something interesting has been happening. My placement has drifted upwards. Not sure what that's about, but it's all working so I won't question it.

Thanks Doug!
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to hear, Mike!

I've heard Doug say that a IIIA or IV should err on the side of a more extreme placement if in doubt (particularly to avoid type-switching). Maybe that's part of what you're experiencing.

I'm hearing great things about your playing from my friends in NYC (most recently when I played a gig with my buddy Alex Goodman here in Toronto). I hope it just keeps getting better for you!
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul T. wrote:
Nice to hear, Mike!

I've heard Doug say that a IIIA or IV should err on the side of a more extreme placement if in doubt (particularly to avoid type-switching). Maybe that's part of what you're experiencing.

I'm hearing great things about your playing from my friends in NYC (most recently when I played a gig with my buddy Alex Goodman here in Toronto). I hope it just keeps getting better for you!



Man, Alex is a bad boy! He's subbing in my band a lot these days.
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He sure is!

Incredibly inspiring fellow, as well - he did not sound all that good at all not so long ago.
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PivotBone
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's great to hear, Mike. Thanks for sharing! Doug really knows his stuff!

Rich Hanks
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PhxHorn
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar experience a few years back. I had been mis-typed as a IIIA, and for about a year I was having some problems because I was pushing up to ascend. Then when Dave Sheetz typed me as a IIIB in 2010 and I started pulling down to ascend, everything started to work much better.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, if it works, go for it. It's kind of like when we first do our Orientation and Analysis, and we're typed as "(Your Type) for now." People don't usually change from up to downstream (or vice versa) but nothing's written in stone.

I remember once I asked Chris L. about IIIA's, and I think he told me that a IIIA was essentially a IV up-side down, and a IV could also be seen as an upside-down IIIA. Basically, the two are opposites, both in airstream direction and pivot direction. For that reason I don't think I could play as a IIIA personally, because as a IV, it's going against mother nature big time. But I could definitely see how someone could switch from IIIB to IIIA, and again, vice versa.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to dig up this thread to see when it was when you made the transformation to IIIA, Mike. My guess was right, that you were less than half my age when you did this, which gives me great consolation.

Had I made this transition when I was 28 or 29 I suspect it would have been less of a challenge. However, waiting until I had been playing 55+ years means that I have many more decades of "undoing" ahead of me.

Anyway, I thought some of you might also find this old thread interesting.

Thanks for posting it when you did, Mike, and for all who chimed in!
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow - can't believe it's been this long! The time is flying.

I still remember the gig I was referencing in my original post. I wasn't sure if the IIIA was going to work but I was determined to commit to it. I played things that I had never played that night, and even the other section members were wondering what was up.
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jicetp
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey everyone,

Can someone clarify : puill up/down to ascend/descend ?

Thanks
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jicetp wrote:
Hey everyone,

Can someone clarify : puill up/down to ascend/descend ?

Thanks

----------------------------
I'm curious about that too.
A few specific questions -
1) Does the mouthpiece rim actually 'slide' or 'skid' on the lips?
2) Do the lips slide or skid on the teeth?
3) Does the rim sort of 'roll' into a slightly different position on the lips, or do the points of rim pressure seem to move?
4) Does the up/down rely on changes in the distribution of rim pressure between the upper and lower lips, or the on the 'legs' contact position?
5) Are any of these ideas BAD or wrong, and should not be attempted?

I realize that trying to give a precise explanation might be difficult, and that individual experimentation is needed, but I think it would be helpful to have guidance about what to attempt and what to avoid. Also, is there an explainable goal in lip/embouchure positioning that is accomplished?
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jean-Claude wrote:
Can someone clarify : puill up/down to ascend/descend?

As Doc Reinhardt said many times:

The mouthpiece and lips as one unit move to a slightly higher or slightly lower position on the teeth and gums.

For the IIIA, we push up to ascend, pull down to descend.

For the IIIB, pull down to ascend, push up to descend.

The Type IV uses the same "embouchure motion" as the IIIB.

The movement is minimal.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:

As Doc Reinhardt said many times:

The mouthpiece and lips as one unit move to a slightly higher or slightly lower position on the teeth and gums. ...

The movement is minimal.

---------------------------
Thanks for the info.
I wonder if players feel this 'movement' as their inner lip tissue sliding on the teeth, or of the inner lip tissue 'flexing' to a higher or lower position.
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
BeboppinFool wrote:

As Doc Reinhardt said many times:

The mouthpiece and lips as one unit move to a slightly higher or slightly lower position on the teeth and gums. ...

The movement is minimal.

---------------------------
Thanks for the info.
I wonder if players feel this 'movement' as their inner lip tissue sliding on the teeth, or of the inner lip tissue 'flexing' to a higher or lower position.


The mouthpiece and lips move together as one unit. That's what Doc said, and that's what it feels like to me.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to Mike and BbF for the info.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay, what Reinhardt called a "pivot" (I prefer to use different terms usually, because it can cause misunderstanding) is an important part of brass embouchure technique and is well worth understanding better. It's helpful both for musicians working to improve their playing and teachers who want to help students better.

You might find this page helpful in understanding what a "pivot" is and how it can work differently for different players. There is also plenty of information in Reinhardt's "Encyclopedia of the Pivot System," but once you understand what to look for you'll be able to spot this phenomenon on all brass players.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, thanks for the link to your page.
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
A few specific questions -
1) Does the mouthpiece rim actually 'slide' or 'skid' on the lips?
Absolutely not.

2) Do the lips slide or skid on the teeth?
Sort of.

3) Does the rim sort of 'roll' into a slightly different position on the lips, or do the points of rim pressure seem to move?
Well... sort of maybe but no, not really.

4) Does the up/down rely on changes in the distribution of rim pressure between the upper and lower lips, or the on the 'legs' contact position?
No.

5) Are any of these ideas BAD or wrong, and should not be attempted?
These are all such big and common misconceptions that really have little or no relationship to what the pivot is or should be.

And... that's why we have this confusion of IIIA vs IIIB.
It's a lot easier to show than describe.

If anyone in the New York area wants clarification on any of this, I will be driving to Queens on July 29th for a gig on the 30th, then upstate for a few days.
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All -- Mike and Rich, thanks for this. I'm afraid that I unconsciously fall into "type switching." I'm typed as a IIIB, but I find that I can use both the IIIB pivot and the IIIA pivot. This is somewhat unsettling, and I'm unsure what to do about it. Any advice? Thanks!
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug has said that if you can do both, you’re better off with IIIA and in my case that’s proving to be true.
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