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Type IV = Stevens/Costello Embouchure



 
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donovan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:27 am    Post subject: Type IV = Stevens/Costello Embouchure Reply with quote

I’m a Type IV, and I’ve also been interested in the Stevens embouchure. As I read through the Stevens info, and watch Roy Roman’s videos, I see lots of similarities and even some instruction that seems to align and augment what DSR has done.

Anyone else notice this, or have thoughts on it?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My limited knowledge about Reinhardt and Stevens-Costello is that both recognize the fundamental importance of an embouchure/lip positioning that facilitates lip vibration/pulsation, and strive to avoid positions and actions that inhibit or limit lip flexibility.

If there is a Reinhardt 'type' that is similar to what S-C advocates, it's not surprising that 'good use' of that type would be done (and explained) using similar language.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Type IV = Stevens/Costello Embouchure Reply with quote

donovan wrote:
I’m a Type IV, and I’ve also been interested in the Stevens embouchure. As I read through the Stevens info, and watch Roy Roman’s videos, I see lots of similarities and even some instruction that seems to align and augment what DSR has done.

Anyone else notice this, or have thoughts on it?


I seem to recall that Roy Stevens essentially tried to make every player into a Type IV and those who really were tended to have good results with his teaching. The others . . . not so much. I vaguely remember Doc telling me something along those lines.
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have known people who studied with both Reinhardt and Roy Stevens. Rich is correct, as I understand it Roy tried to make everybody play as a IV. Other than that, he may have had an even better understanding of how upstream works than Reinhardt.

So in that respect he was the same as everybody else who says Play as I do.

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Waiting for a snide remark from Rich about me being a IIIA...
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug Elliott wrote:
I have known people who studied with both Reinhardt and Roy Stevens. Rich is correct, as I understand it Roy tried to make everybody play as a IV. Other than that, he may have had an even better understanding of how upstream works than Reinhardt.

So in that respect he was the same as everybody else who says Play as I do.

------
Waiting for a snide remark from Rich about me being a IIIA...

Nope, no snide remarks from me. You are the one guy who was able to spot what I was doing to sabotage my own playing and I'm really glad you did! Of course, I'm the one having to go through all the sweat and hard work of making it take hold, but I was ready to stop playing trumpet for good this time last year.

I was thoroughly beaten when I contacted you on September 29th of last year, so that was several months of coming to terms with the fact that my embouchure was DOA. Things are slowly coming around and I'm confident now that yes, I will be able to play trumpet reasonably well sometime in the not-too-distant future.

Now, if I had gone to Roy Stevens and he tried to make me a IV, imagine how totally screwed I'd be by now! (There's the snide remark, but not about you, Doug!)


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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know much about the Stevens approach, but I might want to check it out and see what I think. May take me a little while to formulate an opinion.

Here’s some second hand experiences: Lin Biviano went to see Roy Stevens and told me about it in a lesson. He seemed to like it actually, despite his being a downstream player, but I don’t remember why he said it helped him.

He DID also say that Bill Chase went to Stevens to turn him into a IV, probably so he would have an easier time accessing the range above double C. Lin told me though that Chase was not surprisingly unable to change to a IV.

Even more interesting is that our own Dave Sheetz took a lesson with Roy Stevens. I’m not sure if Dave is posting here currently so I guess you will have to trust me on this one. Dave said that he felt there were at least a couple things worth trying in the Stevens approach, and even assigned me a drill that Roy assigned him: it was called the “frown” exercise, where you “frown” and pull your mouth corners down. It’s an isometric exercise a little like the pencil exercise. But I tried it and it didn’t work for me. That’s one of the only things, maybe even the only thing that Dave asked me to try that didn’t work. I just stuck with the pencil exercise, which did work for me and seemed to do the same thing.

Anyway, I have more to say but will try to check in later after checking out some Stevens videos.
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donovan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I can tell that in essense the Stevens approach is to try and turn everyone into a Type IV, and those of us that are reasoanably well versed in Reinhardt can understand where the pitfalls of that may lie. I do think, after listening to the “So You Think You Are a Type IV” recordings, DSR was open to trying to convert IIIB players to type IV if they would benefit from the IV benefits (easy range, quick recovery), the cons wouldn’t negatively effect them (bright sound), and they had the potential to make the switch.

To be clear, I’m certainly not advocating that everyone check out the Stevens approach. Only that Type IV players who’ve already had success with DSR might also find this content enlightening. I’ve been using some of the Stevens ideas before I realized they were Stevens. Now that I’m incorporating them into my DSR stuff, I’m playing the loudest Double C’s of my life, and they aren’t anywhere near as hard.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so I read some of the articles on roystevens.org last night.

A couple similarities to Reinhardt (so we can keep this thread as Reinhardt-related as possible).

Stevens says that in his method he starts the student with the upper register. This is somewhat similar to Reinhardt in that Reinhardt wanted you to start your warm up on higher notes to get your chops out of the lower register. But clearly these two had different ways of going about it. Also, I guess the Stevens “static” exercise would be the equivalent to Reinhardt’s compression drills, as it’s an exercise where sound is not the primary goal, but development in the upper register is. It also gives the student a carefree way to practice high notes. Don’t get it? That’s okay, these are not sound drills.

Somewhere in there, Stevens says the players with the most natural ability have more even teeth. Reinhardt believed that natural players, or “lucky accidents” as he called them, had lips that were the perfect length for their teeth, but not necessarily even teeth (although that may help too; I don’t know).

Lastly, going back to the “frown” exercise. It seems the frown exercise is very important in the Stevens approach. This is actually quite simpatico with Reinhardt in the respect that Reinhardt believed smiling was one of the two most destructive brass playing habits. So “frowning”, being the opposite of the “smile,” is definitely the right idea. This could be partly why Dave Sheetz thought there was something to this exercise.

In fact, it seems both Reinhardt and Stevens believed in forming your embouchure “like the letter M.” Of every trumpet approach I’ve seen, he and Reinhardt are the only ones who discuss this that I am aware of.

I will try to watch some videos and update you with my thoughts.

Best,

Josh
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