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loweredsixth
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005
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Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
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 Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | I said it is not clear where their horns are made. It is not – at least to me (they had to qualify that only "custom" horns are...), and I am stating MY opinion. |
Why is it still not clear to you where their horns are made? It being unclear to you is not an opinion. This is very frustrating. Do you not believe the people that have spoken up? Why are you insistent that the truth only becomes the truth when they write it on their website?
Now I might be wrong here, but I think they refer to all their brass as custom. If that’s the case, then there’s just a simple misunderstanding. If I’m wrong about that, then it surely has been made clear to you here that they make all their own parts.
I feel bad for the people you have steered away from Adams based on assumptions that have turned out to be incorrect.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| loweredsixth wrote: | | Now I might be wrong here, but I think they refer to all their brass as custom. |
That seems to be the case. All of their models other than their entry model can be fully customized to the customer's liking.
It's kinda funny to read all of this. I guess it may be different in the USA, but in Europe (the Benelux region especially) Adams is one the major names in muscial instruments. It's odd to see someone question their integrity as if it were some local sweatshop. Understandable, but funny. |
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Brassnose
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Joined: 07 Mar 2016
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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It is sorta funny. I have no way of knowing but I am guesstimating that Adams and Schilke may be about the same size workforce-wise.
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delano
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | “Bashing” is a synonym for lies. I have said nothing untrue. I believe you are crossing a line in that accusation.
I said their about page is a mission statement. It is.
I said claiming merit on “family values” is an ancient practice and going back to its inception was shady – I provided case in point.
I asked why someone would be evasive without a need – I made no accusation, only pointed out the behavior.
I said it is not clear where their horns are made. It is not – at least to me (they had to qualify that only "custom" horns are...), and I am stating MY opinion. Their website factory size and activity descriptions clash with Trent’s. I have already stated that I place more faith in his statement than theirs.
I stated their website link to information on custom options gives no detail on bore sizes or metal thicknesses. It does not.
I said Hermokiwi’s story was consistent with what happens when a custom shop relies on suppliers. It is. That is not the same as saying this was the case. I said it is “typical” of – which it is.
I then asked questions that can easily be extended to Yamaha, which sources an abundance of parts from assorted suppliers, Bach, Conn-Selmer, and many others. Where is the line that defines “making”? That is a question, not a claim regarding any particular product.
I said any time a company hides details, it makes me expect the worst. It does. And that is a product of a lot of experience. My “expectation” is not the same as an assertion that something is a certain way. And many have freely expressed that their expectation and experience is otherwise – to which I say great.
I stated that Flip does not feel the need to hide the origins of his horns. He does not – you can see that clearly, and always have, on his site.
And, I said when someone does not brag about where and how their product is made, they are, by definition, not proud of it. I see that as factual, but it is perhaps the one point behavioral theorists could maybe argue. (and before we go back to Flip, he proudly stakes his personal reputation on every horn saying never mind where it is made, it is finished and tested by him)
One of the points of forums is to share opinions. I have shared mine in this case. That many disagree is good and the point of free exchange of ideas. Plus, it speaks well of Adams and ACB. In this case, my opinion is that Adams has a poor public face (website) for a company, and that situation makes me, PERSONALLY, leery of them - I have no significant opinion on their product, as it is not widespread enough in use for me to have any exposure to it. I just dont trust a company that has a website like that. You are free to believe anything you wish, and express that view. I ask only for the same courtesy. |
Maybe I have shortcomings in the knowledge of the meaning of English words but in my world 'bashing' has nothing to do with lies. If I remember well the Webster says something like attacking (violently). Not any translating machine mentions 'lies'.
If we talk about crossing lines I have to say that your vague and negative insinuations without any information and without any knowledge, form a clear and obvious case of crossing lines, maybe even legal lines.
But you seem to continue with these, (xenophobe?) accusations so let it be,
I don't want any fight over this. BTW I am NOT a fan of the horns of Adams nor a fan of their shops so it's only about to have things straight here. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:18 am Post subject: |
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This Adams brochure provides more details about the construction and materials -
https://www.adams-music.com/en/download/3e42b6b206b146f3b0d47c5772ab6107
From the brochures (including the one about Marching Brass), it appears that all of the Adams trumpets except for the marching ones, are part of the 'Custom' line.
If anyone has found reference to a non-marching trumpet that is not part of the 'Custom' line I'm interested in seeing the source material.
Jay
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Brassnose wrote: | | It is sorta funny. I have no way of knowing but I am guesstimating that Adams and Schilke may be about the same size workforce-wise. |
Dream on.
https://www.adams-music.com/winkels |
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Brassnose
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:51 am Post subject: |
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@delano: meaning ... Adams is much larger?
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
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1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
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Vin DiBona
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Joined: 24 Dec 2003
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Location: OHare area
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:15 am Post subject: |
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In regards to country of manufacture (origin), the import laws state the item must be marked in a manner which allows the end purchaser to determine the country of origin.
Here is a part of the regulations.
https://www.cbp.gov/trade/rulings/informed-compliance-publications/marking-country-origin-us-imports
I am a retired licensed Customs Broker and dealt with this and many other Federal Regulations for 45 years.
Basically, every imported item (with certain exempted items) must be marked with the country of origin. If it is determined marking may be injurious to the product, the container the item is sold in must me plainly marked as to country of origin.
Either there is a marking on the Adams trumpets or there is some label or tag attached to the horn that shows the country of origin.
By the way, an importer removing a tag of origin and remarking it a USA product will result in heavy fines or loss of the right to import. I saw that happen.
If you have a Schilke trumpet, the valve casing is shown stamped with "Schilke Chicago USA"
That is a legal marking.
R. Tomasek |
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RL
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Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:24 am Post subject: |
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Adams is a little shop in the south of te Netherlands.
As you maybe know....everything is little in The Netherlands.
When you drive along the small building and you blink your eyes once, you've already passed it. During the Covid crises only two people are allowed to visit the shop at the same time...others have to wait outside...it's just too small.
http://www.vanstratummanagement.nl/image/1f8tzmv47/ittervoort-adams.jpg?1
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austincustombrass
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Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 246
Location: Kansas City, MO
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Vin DiBona wrote: | In regards to country of manufacture (origin), the import laws state the item must be marked in a manner which allows the end purchaser to determine the country of origin.
Here is a part of the regulations.
https://www.cbp.gov/trade/rulings/informed-compliance-publications/marking-country-origin-us-imports
I am a retired licensed Customs Broker and dealt with this and many other Federal Regulations for 45 years.
Basically, every imported item (with certain exempted items) must be marked with the country of origin. If it is determined marking may be injurious to the product, the container the item is sold in must me plainly marked as to country of origin.
Either there is a marking on the Adams trumpets or there is some label or tag attached to the horn that shows the country of origin.
By the way, an importer removing a tag of origin and remarking it a USA product will result in heavy fines or loss of the right to import. I saw that happen.
If you have a Schilke trumpet, the valve casing is shown stamped with "Schilke Chicago USA"
That is a legal marking.
R. Tomasek |
Every box from Adams is labeled made in the Netherlands because they are. It's no secret. I have no idea why Ron can't get this yet he continues to think an extremely well established business with hundreds of employees and 50 years of experience is "fishy".
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Brassnose wrote: | | @delano: meaning ... Adams is much larger? |
I think something between 5 to 10 times, maybe even more. |
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Shawnino
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Joined: 27 Jun 2020
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Well, I was millimetres or miles away from buying an Adams trumpet. I don't really mind what fluff they put on their website for marketing--everyone needs to market as he sees fit. But their customisation PDF is opaque, and it wasted a fair amount of my time, a dealer's time, and for all I know, Miel Adams' time. And that's unfortunate.
First, not all the finishes are available with all the bell options. It took some days to come back with that info, but that was a minor issue. Cosmetics are cosmetics at the end of the day. I didn't really care as long as I could get my 4-valve A6.
Well, after a few more days, and at least a couple conversations between the dealer and Miel Adams, it was made clear that the fourth valve will only go on the A4. So after a week and a half, no Adams for me. I don't need an A4. Not a knock on it, if you play it good for you, I just don't need That Much Trumpet. In my hands, it's inefficient.
A first-world problem, I'm sure, and I think I've found someone to make me a 4-valve horn. But if Adams' PDF had said "these finishes with these bells" and said "4-valve on A4 only" (the way it says the ergo valves are on A8 only), I never would have wasted everyone's time. |
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Vin DiBona
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Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1473
Location: OHare area
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Trent, I had hoped you would chime in here.
The box marking should pass US Customs and if there is any indication of
Adams Netherlands on the horn itself, that is absolute proof.
R. Tomasek |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:08 am Post subject: |
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So I guess being polite is not in favor anymore.
Delano: calling me a xenophobe is the cheap, playground, defamation that only those with no personal integrity or the weight of reason on their side resort to.
I played and endorsed Yamaha in the 1970s (in Detroit no less) when the prejudice against Japanese products had reached a fever pitch with the concurrent coastal market success of Toyota and Honda. How dare you.
I have horns made entirely in China that are excellent instruments, the equal of American and other examples. And just as I have complete garbage made in Asia, so too are some examples from the US and Europe. (as I have said before here and elsewhere). Plus, pretty soon, instrument making will be global. Andalucia, with Vance's remarkable corps-focused product line that, IN MY OPINION, has raised the bar considerably in that arena, is truly global in sourcing and design including 3 continents in a corporate partnership on which the sun never sets. And guess what - Yamaha was already there long before.
This started with my expressing that a corporate website inspired an uncomfortable lack of confidence in the company on my part. It still does. I object to incomplete product information that seems high on the list of what customers typically want to know, not any particular point of origin. Stop adding in your own interpretations of what I mean.
Trent: I regret this seems to have us a bit at odds. Believe me, if it were not an 800+ mile drive, I would come to your shop and look at Adams horns. I don't get to see the boxes, and I'm not about to trust YouTube where doctors tell us there is a cure for Covid and illness is caused by demons. A corporate website carries certain liabilities for accuracy on the part of a company - that is therefore the reliable resource available to those not lucky enough to live near your shop or NYC. I can only formulate opinions on the information I have - or in this case, do not. I make no negative claims about Adams instruments, I only say their own communications leave me uncomfortable about what they don't say clearly enough for my feeble mind to grasp, and I wont include something that makes me feel that way when someone asks for my input (as I said first that set this off).
And to all who are debating size of their facilities and staff: who cares? I mentioned that only as another example of Adams' statements not making sense. Andy Taylor has a tiny shop, Bach has (surprisingly) a big one, and Yamaha has massive ones all over the world. All three produce artist level instruments.
Wow, I wish Bach had such aggressive defenders here.
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www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | So I guess being polite is not in favor anymore.
Delano: calling me a xenophobe is the cheap, playground, defamation that only those with no personal integrity or the weight of reason on their side resort to.
. |
Nothing to do with politeness, I wrote (xenophobe?),which means a question, because I could simply not imagine ANY other reason for your stubborn continuing of blind attacks without ANY acceptable reason.
Let's take another example of website information: where can you find on the Schilke website that their bells are made by two other companies? Maybe not important but they claim that they make all the parts themselves.
And the bell is quite an important part of a horn. |
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James Becker
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Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Schilke sourcing pure copper electroformed blanks from Anderson Plating and extruded blanks from another doesn't represent a completely formed bell, but are simply raw stock in an approximate shape. The fact is, those blanks require significant labor to turn them into a completed bells. And sourcing anything else for that matter, be it CNC components prior to brazing and machining doesn't negate them as in house completed parts. I doubt very much that any of the major manufacturers don't do the same. FWIW Schilke has been forming traditional one piece bells in house for several years now.
It is far more common for boutique makers to outsource completed valve assemblies, bells, crooks, tubing, you name it and assemble them into whole instruments.
My two cents.
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | Schilke sourcing pure copper electroformed blanks from Anderson Plating and extruded blanks from another doesn't represent a completely formed bell, but are simply raw stock in an approximate shape. The fact is, those blanks require significant labor to turn them into a completed bells. And sourcing anything else for that matter, be it CNC components prior to brazing and machining doesn't negate them as in house completed parts. I doubt very much that any of the major manufacturers don't do the same. FWIW Schilke has been forming traditional one piece bells in house for several years now.
It is far more common for boutique makers to outsource completed valve assemblies, bells, crooks, tubing, you name it and assemble them into whole instruments.
My two cents. |
The electroforming at Anderson used to be mentioned on their site I believe - did not know it was absent. But then, Bach does not mention that their plating in general happens there (literally across the street). This ties back to the question I posed of how much has to be made inhouse to be a "maker"? - as well as the assertion in my more recent rant that making is becoming global in nature. Maybe that in itself would be worthy of a new thread.
Certainly there is strong merit on both sides. If Adams makes every single part inhouse, that is a remarkable accomplishment - one that it would be reasonable to brag about simply as demonstration of skill and commitment. Conversely, Henry Ford eventually determined at his Rouge complex that vertical integration tends to be less efficient, and suffer from more quality problems, than relying on a diverse mix of specialists, each in their own sub-scope, when assembling complex systems. Yamaha, Andalucia, other boutique makers, etc. have gone this way. Juxtaposed against both of those there is the VMI mega-works in Markneukirchen that is a blend of both philosophies made possible through the sheer scale of Buffet-Crampon.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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austincustombrass
Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 246
Location: Kansas City, MO
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | James Becker wrote: | Schilke sourcing pure copper electroformed blanks from Anderson Plating and extruded blanks from another doesn't represent a completely formed bell, but are simply raw stock in an approximate shape. The fact is, those blanks require significant labor to turn them into a completed bells. And sourcing anything else for that matter, be it CNC components prior to brazing and machining doesn't negate them as in house completed parts. I doubt very much that any of the major manufacturers don't do the same. FWIW Schilke has been forming traditional one piece bells in house for several years now.
It is far more common for boutique makers to outsource completed valve assemblies, bells, crooks, tubing, you name it and assemble them into whole instruments.
My two cents. |
The electroforming at Anderson used to be mentioned on their site I believe - did not know it was absent. But then, Bach does not mention that their plating in general happens there (literally across the street). This ties back to the question I posed of how much has to be made inhouse to be a "maker"? - as well as the assertion in my more recent rant that making is becoming global in nature. Maybe that in itself would be worthy of a new thread.
Certainly there is strong merit on both sides. If Adams makes every single part inhouse, that is a remarkable accomplishment - one that it would be reasonable to brag about simply as demonstration of skill and commitment. Conversely, Henry Ford eventually determined at his Rouge complex that vertical integration tends to be less efficient, and suffer from more quality problems, than relying on a diverse mix of specialists, each in their own sub-scope, when assembling complex systems. Yamaha, Andalucia, other boutique makers, etc. have gone this way. Juxtaposed against both of those there is the VMI mega-works in Markneukirchen that is a blend of both philosophies made possible through the sheer scale of Buffet-Crampon. |
Adams makes every part doesn't have to brag about it. They have their own multi-million dollar plating facility on premises. They don't have to brag about it. They are a huge corporation. They don't have to brag about it.
Quite honestly they are busy making instruments and enriching people's musical lives versus defending their corporation against keyboard heroes. Ron your posts remind me of how far TH has fallen and how people like yourself who literally have no idea about the inner workings of this corporation talk about how their corporation is fishy because of a website.
I am sad I even feel like I have to defend my friends and my musical family from people like yourself. It's a wonderful reminder to limit my time here on these forums and let the armchair experts rule the roost. This forum used to be an amazing site 10-15 years ago.
-T
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As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.
It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.
Cool Links here:
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Trent: I wish you nothing but the best. Your actions online have added to the knowledgebase of the community and I would never want to be mis-understood as not recognizing and appreciating that.
My last was meant to be completely neutral. As you feel it failed, I would be happy to edit the post in any way you feel would eliminate that bias.
I honestly think this dynamic of vertical vs horizontal production structure is a worthy topic of discussion, not to pick favorites, but just to better understand each - and maybe what the landscape will look like for all of us down the road.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Divitt Trumpets
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015
Posts: 520
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
The electroforming at Anderson used to be mentioned on their site I believe - did not know it was absent. But then, Bach does not mention that their plating in general happens there (literally across the street). This ties back to the question I posed of how much has to be made inhouse to be a "maker"? - as well as the assertion in my more recent rant that making is becoming global in nature. Maybe that in itself would be worthy of a new thread.
Certainly there is strong merit on both sides. If Adams makes every single part inhouse, that is a remarkable accomplishment - one that it would be reasonable to brag about simply as demonstration of skill and commitment. Conversely, Henry Ford eventually determined at his Rouge complex that vertical integration tends to be less efficient, and suffer from more quality problems, than relying on a diverse mix of specialists, each in their own sub-scope, when assembling complex systems. Yamaha, Andalucia, other boutique makers, etc. have gone this way. Juxtaposed against both of those there is the VMI mega-works in Markneukirchen that is a blend of both philosophies made possible through the sheer scale of Buffet-Crampon. |
FYI Yamaha owns factories in many countries. They don't outsource because they choose to train the factories they own to ensure their quality and standards, unlike other major manufacturers who have no problem hiring any instrument factory to build their bottom line instruments and certain components.
From what I remember reading, Yamaha even owns metal foundries in Germany to be able to use the alloys and have the supplies they need.
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