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mncorrado
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Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 37
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 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:27 am Post subject: Valve Guides for Besson 928 |
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Hello -
I am sure some of you know of my long running story related to the Besson 928 that I was able to finally get for my girls.
Anyway...
The current valve guides (white) are pretty worn. I purchased replacement valve guides (black) for the 928. The store I purchased them from said they could be tight and may need to be sanded/shaped a bit to fit as they are at maximum size.
I figure I just sand down the flat side until I can get them into the cutout for the valve. Yes?
These are the ones in the cornet at the moment... I tried to order these but they wanted 7X the cost of the valve guides for shipping to the USA.
https://www.normans.co.uk/product/besson-cornet-valve-guide
These are what I ordered and have...
https://www.trevadamusic.co.uk/brass/instrument-spares/cornet-spares/sovereign-prestige-valve-guide
Thoughts...
Jeff |
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homebilly
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Joined: 24 Dec 2010
Posts: 2197
Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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call kanstul
maybe hey have what you need
i paid $2 each for mine
_________________
ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com |
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Andy Del
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2662
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:41 am Post subject: |
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Adjusting the size of the valve guides / keys is a normal practice.
It will probably be cheaper, easier and more effective to get a good tech to do this.
Cheers
Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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mncorrado
Regular Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: |
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I did check with Kanstul. No response back yet. The person I communicated with said they had a ton of parts in a drawer somewhere. Time will tell.
I contacted this company but was told the white valve guides I have are unobtanium - they don't exist anymore.
https://www.dawkes.co.uk/brass+repair+supplies/cornet/cornet+spare+parts/besson/besson+%7E+927%5E928+sovereign
These seem like the right ones. Though I can't be totally sure. From what I can tell they look exactly like the current worn out ones in the cornet.
https://www.normans.co.uk/product/besson-cornet-valve-guide
Unfortunately the company wanted to charge me $67 shipping to the USA. Anyone from the UK want to earn some money for a pint and help me out being a middle man? I can pay you via PayPal. I suspect one could ship some very small valve guides to the USA for far less than $67.
I am sending the 928 to be refinished with a very large instrument repair facility in the region. They have done good work for me before. I am hoping they will be able to source some replacement valve guides. I did contact the Besson rep. here in the states that covers my area. He said it would be easy to get valve guides through an instrument repair store here in St. Paul - Minneapolis. So I am hoping the company that is going to refinish the cornet also has access to these mysterious valve guides.
This has been quite a journey from the acquisition around the first of the year... waiting for a few parts from the UK (consumables) coupled with the search for some valve guides to now finally having the cornet re-finished. While irritating at times I did get a very good deal on the instrument and even with the repairs and what not it still will be a much cheaper investment then purchase of a new cornet. |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| mncorrado wrote: |
Hi mncorrado
I did check with Kanstul. No response back yet. The person I communicated with said they had a ton of parts in a drawer somewhere. Time will tell.
Maybe I'm being thick, and although I know that Kanstul made some of the F Besson instruments, like my C trumpet, I'm not aware of them being any link between Kanstul and Besson cornets, or any reason why Kanstul would have valve guides for a Besson 928 Sovereign.
I contacted this company but was told the white valve guides I have are unobtanium - they don't exist anymore.
https://www.dawkes.co.uk/brass+repair+supplies/cornet/cornet+spare+parts/besson/besson+%7E+927%5E928+sovereign
Dawkes would know, although surely Besson valve guides must be available for the current Buffet Crampon made 928 Sovereign. Maybe they are no longer white in colour.
These seem like the right ones. Though I can't be totally sure. From what I can tell they look exactly like the current worn out ones in the cornet.
https://www.normans.co.uk/product/besson-cornet-valve-guide
Unfortunately the company wanted to charge me $67 shipping to the USA. Anyone from the UK want to earn some money for a pint and help me out being a middle man? I can pay you via PayPal. I suspect one could ship some very small valve guides to the USA for far less than $67.
Regarding the valve guides at Normans, although these are original Besson valve guides rather than an aftermarket part, like the black ones which you have already bought from Trevada Music, Normans are saying the same thing as you were advised by Trevada music, in that the valve guides may have to be adjusted to fit.
i.e. From the Normans website:
Please note these guides are supplied at their fullest size, we have known it possible that they need a minor amount of adjusting to make them fit some Besson models.
If they also may need to be adjusted to fit, is there really any difference between these and the black ones you have already bought from Trevada music? Without seeing them in the flesh, I cannot compare the quality of plastic.
I am sending the 928 to be refinished with a very large instrument repair facility in the region. They have done good work for me before. I am hoping they will be able to source some replacement valve guides. I did contact the Besson rep. here in the states that covers my area. He said it would be easy to get valve guides through an instrument repair store here in St. Paul - Minneapolis. So I am hoping the company that is going to refinish the cornet also has access to these mysterious valve guides.
If you don't mind me saying, I'd wait and see whether this is possible, before paying to have valve guides shipped from the UK.
Again, if you don't mind me saying, I think that it is worth considering whether the existing valve guides are really worn enough to need replacing, or just look old and discoloured. If the valves are working fine, and the valve guides are not coming out of their slot in the valve casing, resulting in the valve spinning round, there may be no need to replace them.
This has been quite a journey from the acquisition around the first of the year... waiting for a few parts from the UK (consumables) coupled with the search for some valve guides to now finally having the cornet re-finished. While irritating at times I did get a very good deal on the instrument and even with the repairs and what not it still will be a much cheaper investment then purchase of a new cornet.
I understand.
Take care
Lou |
P.S. If you have no luck with sourcing valve guides from your instrument repair facility, have you thought about contacting Phil Parker, a large brass store in London.
They are a UK dealer for Besson, and have their own repair tech. I imagine that they could source valve guides for a 928 Sovereign.
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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mncorrado
Regular Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| The valve guides seem to work fine. The trouble is that they have worn and cut into the tabs from the slots in the valves themselves. Thus there is some twisting of the valve in the valve block. Eventually they are just going to snap off. Then I will be sorry out of luck. Something will work out in time. |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| mncorrado wrote: | | The valve guides seem to work fine. The trouble is that they have worn and cut into the tabs from the slots in the valves themselves. Thus there is some twisting of the valve in the valve block. Eventually they are just going to snap off. Then I will be sorry out of luck. Something will work out in time. |
Hi mncorrado
Sorry, I'm a bit confused about plastic valve guides cutting into the tabs from the slots in the valves themselves, to quote your words. When you say the valves themselves, do you mean the pistons or valve casings, and sorry, I just can't understand how a plastic (or nylon, whatever they are made of) valve guide, can cut into anything metal on either the piston or valve casing, owing to plastic being a lot softer than metal.
Or are you referring to the tabs on the valve guides, and there being a little cut above each side of each tab? If so, I believe that I saw this on the ones that I took off my Bach cornet (or am I getting confused with the metal valve guides that I used to have on my 1979 Bach 37 trumpet, which have a little cut in front of the tab, which is presumably just from where they were made), but I don't think that the cuts are likely to get any larger in the short term or there is too much risk of the tab snapping off the valve guide. Obviously parts can fail, but I don't think that this is a common issue. My experience with plastic valve guides, is that the tabs of older ones seem to get a little more rounded
Sorry, I'm not being awkward, I just don't know what you mean. I've been playing cornets with double nylon valve guides for only twenty years, and have never known any part of nylon/plastic valve guides to snap off. Maybe I've been lucky or am being naive, but if I thought that nylon valve guides were particularly prone to snapping, I would check mine, and I don't.
Regarding the twisting of the valve in the valve block, a little bit of rotational play of the valve guides in their slot on the valve casing is normal.
Would you mind posting a photo to show what you mean. Thank you very much.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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mncorrado
Regular Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Writing is not my forte for sure. I meant to say the slots in which the plastic valve guides move within the top sprung valve have worn the legs that stick out and interface with the valve block.
The valve guide moving over time... up and down and with some twisting action over many years has cut or worn the leg of the guide that interfaces with the valve block. The legs attaching the tabs of the valve guides has worn. Not the tabs themselves.
I suspect what is in the cornet could likely last many more years. Though over time plastic does become more brittle and if and when it fails I would like to have a spare. I have taken the project so far I figure why not replace all of the consumable parts... like the valve springs and guides.
I would rather have a non-operational instrument for a few minutes vs. days or weeks trying to find a replacement.
The engineer in me always looks at ways to mitigate failures of things...
Jeff |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mncorrado wrote: | Writing is not my forte for sure. I meant to say the slots in which the plastic valve guides move within the top sprung valve have worn the legs that stick out and interface with the valve block.
The valve guide moving over time... up and down and with some twisting action over many years has cut or worn the leg of the guide that interfaces with the valve block. The legs attaching the tabs of the valve guides has worn. Not the tabs themselves.
I suspect what is in the cornet could likely last many more years. Though over time plastic does become more brittle and if and when it fails I would like to have a spare. I have taken the project so far I figure why not replace all of the consumable parts... like the valve springs and guides.
I would rather have a non-operational instrument for a few minutes vs. days or weeks trying to find a replacement.
The engineer in me always looks at ways to mitigate failures of things...
Jeff |
Hi Jeff
There is nothing wrong with your writing ability, just confusion regarding nomenclature. I think I understand what you are saying, if by leg, you mean the bit between the round central section and the tab on each side.
I understand your desire to replace the valve guides.
Hopefully your local repairer will have no problem sourcing them.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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mncorrado
Regular Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:20 am Post subject: |
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Yes! We are on the same page.
A very nice person from Kanstul did contact me and said they believe they have some valve guides that would fit. They are sending some out to me at no charge. If I am in the market for a new cornet someday they sure went up on the list of potential instruments.
I am intrigued by all of their mouthpiece choices for cornet but it is overwhelming to me to make much sense of it. |
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ghelbig
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Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 908
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mncorrado wrote: | | A very nice person from Kanstul did contact me and said they believe they have some valve guides that would fit. |
For what it's worth: The valve guide you sent the link to looks exactly like the valve guide in my Kanstul-made Besson.
Odds are it will fit. Did you know that Kanstul has then in brass and plastic?
Gary. |
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mncorrado
Regular Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Did not know they have them both in brass and plastic. I wonder if all valve guides are now plastic? In some ways it would make sense. The plastic would have no ability to really wear the valve casing which is a good thing.
I suspect synthetic corks for water keys are probably all the rage or function so much better. Technology... Synthetic bow hair vs. horse hair. Plastic vs. metal valve guides. Synthetic stopper for water key vs. cork. Things change.
The organic nature of music is slowly being lost to technology. I suspect there was someone 100's of years ago saying exactly the same thing. Go figure. |
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