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Getting a bigger sound on the shallower mouthpiece


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Lionel
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:17 pm    Post subject: Getting a bigger sound on the shallower mouthpiece Reply with quote

Most all of us start out on conventional mouthpieces. Deeper than a lot of lead or high note artists often use. And with wide inner dimension and flat rims. That and a sharp inner rim edge. You may choose to disagree with my analysis but try and keep an open mind. As from our beginning days on the trumpet we all get fed a diet of conventional thinking. So it should not surprise us that so many trumpet players only achieve conventional results. The world is full of high C/D trumpet players. This the result I think of conventional thinking. That and conventional "wisdom".

Re flat/sharp rim contours? My lips can bend but I refuse to allow them to fold. Either from a sharp bite or flat rim.

But this is supposed to be about shallow pieces huh? Okay maybe this idea won't be as helpful on standard shallow lead pieces but it is worth a try. Decades ago when I once sought advice on how best to use a shallow mouthpiece I went to the master himself. Al Cass. He who made Dizzy and Red Rodney's pieces. Not to mention Blue Mitchell and maybe a hundred other name working pros. Plus the whole Maynard Ferguson* brass section circa 1972.

Al Cass was da man. Not that I agreed with everything he said but he surely knew his beans on selecting lead or commercial mouthpieces. He directed me to blow lots of middle and lower register "bell tones". Each attack being made by forcefully pushing my tongue way down into the bowl of the shallow mouthpiece. A full tongue penetration into the mouthpiece.

Was a little tricky to do. As it tended to force me to open my lip aperture considerably. However in so doing it opened my tone up greatly. In fact I could then blow lower register tones quite loudly. Even on the shallowest of mouthpieces. Then as I got used to the technique it opened my upper register too. Although it took some time before the trepidation left me. I was a working musician at the time and was concerned about varying any element if my system. However my fears weren't real. The tongue penetration articulation only improved my accuracy.

In a phrase that is best understood rather than be explained? This more open embouchure helped utilize much more of the existing advantage given by the shallower mouthpiece. Opened doors for me. At the time I was still on the fence concerning shallow pieces. So the bell tone tonguing practice technique really turned the key.

Also the opening of the throat/back-bore channel can be a most helpful trick. As this allowed me to at least play a decent tone downstairs on even the smallest if mouthpieces. Some cats like Maynard used incredibly ooen mouthpiece throats. Like a number 15 and 16. That's a bit too large for me however this is the whole purpose of experimentation. I like the #23 throat on a piece even 20% shallower than the Schilke 6a4A. And yet it plays with a very big sound in the middle and even lower register.

However when using more conventional sized pieces will stick to the tried and true #28 standard size. Usually. I have one medium sized piece in #24 drill throat.

By the way. I highly suggest that you get to know the throat size of your mouthpiece. Any Ace Hardware store will sell a full set of the #15 through #28 drill sizes. I bought all of them and is a way I can compare and make suggestions for my friends who seek mouthpiece choices. You don't want to use the drills to open your piece. Not unless you're handy with tools. Even then a drill press with special clamps is advised. Instead just keep a set of drill sizes around just to insert and identify your throat size. You may become very surprised at some of the variances between mouthpieces.

The one drawback of the described bell tone, tongue penetration technique is that it really brings the sharpness of the inner rim into play. You totally feel any sharpness at all from within the rim. So if you can find a rounded inner rim? Do it. Also a more rounded rim contour is also advised. Otherwise the inner rim can take a toll on the upper lip. That is when the tongue penetration articulation is used.

Thank you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Maynard himself really liked Al's mouthpieces. However he was under contract with Jettone and couldn't use other company's pieces.
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For clarification is the tongue penetration technique just for the practice room or something you use on the gig?
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This tongue exercise is legit^^ will make a large difference quickly, for me within a day
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel, do you have the X-Piece? I forget the throat #..I know it's a bigger throat..and, of course, the MF design..but smaller diameter than the HG. I keep coming back to it as a great training tool for establishing muscle memory.. Like I'll do a session of Clarke #1 in spiderweb fashion slurred and tongued from the middle out. Best, Lex
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Lionel, do you have the X-Piece? I forget the throat #..I know it's a bigger throat..and, of course, the MF design..but smaller diameter than the HG. I keep coming back to it as a great training tool for establishing muscle memory.. Like I'll do a session of Clarke #1 in spiderweb fashion slurred and tongued from the middle out. Best, Lex


Ive tried the X-piece. It's certainly useable for me which says a lot. Because when it comes to stock shallow mouthpieces? I have few options anywhere. This the reason I learned to modify and actually build my own pieces with simple tools. LIn fact my only choices which work great is the long since defunct Al Cass series. Granted Al's son Stephen has some newer vintage pieces available. However mine are mostly Al's originals km me that I have some of these.

Another condition I have is a well receded jaw when I play. And for reasons a little tricky to explain in words my substantially receded jaw embouchure tends to contact the mouthpiece bite at the most unfavorable angle. For my poor lip And again this condition is also exacerbated by both a flat rim contour and the full tongue penetration into the mouthpiece.

This used to leave me injured for long periods of time. Esp during my college years studying music. That and my subsequent road travelling life after leaving college. My estimate of this time period is that I was generally in a constantly over-trained chop setting.

"Wish I knew then what I know now". But that's just life...

Yet had I known back then what I do know today? I'd have had a much easier career life. Today I almost never end up with over-trained chops.

Someone asked if I use the tongue penetration as an actual attack? And yes I do. Often in fact. It's an especially good tactic for producing a dominating tone when blowing lead. It also reduces the resistance in my embouchure. Helping produce that bigger sound.

I consider the inner rim "bite" to be analogous to the fret on a stringed instrument. Either that or the bridge or nut at either end. Granted trumpet is otherwise completely unrelated to stringed instruments. However in just this particular incidence exists a similarity. Take the player of a fretless bass.

70 years ago the standup, fretless bass was the only game in town. Then out of necessity cats like Leo Fender started producing the electric bass with
specifically placed frets. In turn this made the new instrument both easier to play and louder. Due to electric amplification. And it also gave the instrument a lot more "pop" on each attack. If the bass player so desired.

Okay apologies again for that seeming digression hut hang on for a spell as I'm gonna tie this all together.

Now, check out tge dufference between the inner rom edge of say a Bach 3C vs that of a Bobby Shew lead trumpet piece made by Yamaha. Disrgarding the obvious cup depth dispariry for a moment just observe the inner rim edge. Indeed the Bach piece is very shatp. Esp as when compared to the Shew. Or lots of screamwr pieces. Say moat anything ending in "a4A" by Schilke. Esp like the 6a4A..

Now what that rounded inner rim on the common screech piece does is at least several things,

A. The rounded inner rim edge increases endurance because it isnt as prone to shut off the blood's circulation to the chops.
B. Similarly the more eased edge reduces much of the penalty for cranking up the old arm pressure on high notes.
C. An eased inner rim edge allows for those interesting lip glissandos and
"Doits". I also believe that the eased inner edge helps produce jazzier shakes or jazz lip trills. One great example of the described mouthpiece producing very cool shakes is of course Bill Chase's work.

But now for the downside...

An eased inner rim edge does tend to put less distinction on the attack. Thus you may now understand why I find bell tone attack practice beneficial. Not only as a way to create a bigger sound on the shallower mouthpieces. But to mitigate or perhaps completely eliminate the mushier attacks which are more common on shallow pieces. However given the choice of developing tons more endurance on a large, sharp edhed piece? Or, developing more pop on a shallow piece which already provides me nearly :enough range as it?


And perhaps most significantly the very shallow piece with a well rouded bite probably isn't suitable for much legit work. For numerous reasons. Most especially due to it's tendency to produce unintention glissandos. These shallow, rounded edge pieces are great if you want sound like Satchmo. However ypur classical conductor will roll his eyes and single you out for "not blending". Either that or for "not producing the characteristic style intended by the composer".
Jazz players typically may hear that remark.

Well as usual? I kinda went overboard in post length. But I didnt get much sleep last night. That and I lack the energy to edit the damned beast down to a more palatable form.ILcan do is a cursory read-through. Then hit send. Also? As much as the length of this post bothers me? I'm even more terrified of an accidenat deletion.

Best Regards friends!
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool deal Lionel. I can understand where you're coming from. I prefer the smaller diameter of the X-piece because the way my chops are..I am a downstream IIIB but I only have a slight overbite, so my horn angle is pretty 'straight out. I also have pretty thin lips. Have you checked out John and Phyllis Storks' book 'Understanding the Mouthpiece'? That one has really helped me over the years. There's some great articles here: http://storkcustom.com/doctor-mouthpiece/ as well.

I agree with you in general about the soft bite of the rim. I really feel the soft bite is a good 'training tool' for the embouchure. I think it's harder to form bad habits and too much pressure with a soft bite - the sound just 'shuts off'. I really do like the rim of the Al Cass '3' series as well..but I just prefer the MF rims even more..For small group jazz most recently I've been experimenting with Derek Saidak's new Legends Holton MF1 copy...pretty awesome ..it's a little shallower than the FBL TS and is great for a lot of different things for me. When it gets a little louder, or in a bigger group situation, I go to the Jim New Manley Jazz1, which has the similar MF design, but shallower than the MF1.

The more I experiment with Lynn Nicholson's concepts, the more I have gotten into training with a certain setup, which makes it easier for me to play all types of mouthpieces, as long as it's not too big a diameter for my chops, like the Reeves High Efficiency 39EX/HV I really dig...

Like you, I believe mouthpiece choice has a definite effect on the efficiency of our playing. Maybe it's because I recently got a Lynnzhorn (which, btw, is the BEST trumpet ever! ) but I have really been focusing on the rim buzzing more and the X-Piece for efficiency training..keeping the maximum relaxation in the facial muscles that aren't needed for playing the trumpet so I can fully engage the core muscles of the body.

I'm not consciously doing any tongue penetration practice nowadays, but I feel this automatically happens in my setup when I get into the extreme high register. If I pay attention, I can feel my tongue through my lips and the top middle part is articulating off the top lip. Everything is very 'up front' way up there for me.

Hey, btw, since you are experimenting with the really shallow pieces, have you checked out the Reeves HE? It's amazingly shallow..When I unscrew the rim, there really is almost no cup to the underpart! Except for custom pieces, I find the Reeves and the Giorgianni 2000 to have the shallowest cups..the Giorgianni has a really weird rim configuration for me..for my chops anyway though.

The Manley Lead3 is one I use a lot for lead stuff right now...Huge sound! And it has a 30 throat..straight V..quite shallow..Great shots of the profile on Jim New's site: http://james-r-new.com/mouthpieces/lead-line-trumpet-mouthpiec.html

I agree with Lynn Nicholson when he says a bigger throat works well on the pure MF style straight V cups...but I find a tighter throat also works great too!
And there are some cats I know like you, who open up the shallow flat-bottomed A4A cups to darken the sound down in the lower range. But, if I am doing really loud lead stuff, I find the more open throat on shallow, flat-bottomed cups makes me work too hard..All the best, Lex
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Al Cass '3X3' in it's full glory...OHHH BABY!!!


Link

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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question to Lionel,
Some time ago I started using a .630 funnel style (MF) mouthpiece. On advice from Jim Manley I started to adjust the aperture with tongue into the cup, not as part of tonguing or attack but to set the aperture gap. When my lips are properly relaxed and ‘filling the cup’ correctly I noticed a much fuller tone along with a more powerful upper register. Is this what you are describing (and even if not thanks of reminding me). I cant manage an attack this way unless I pull tongue back so my ?’s.
Thanks,
Rod
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Question to Lionel,
Some time ago I started using a .630 funnel style (MF) mouthpiece. On advice from Jim Manley I started to adjust the aperture with tongue into the cup, not as part of tonguing or attack but to set the aperture gap. When my lips are properly relaxed and ‘filling the cup’ correctly I noticed a much fuller tone along with a more powerful upper register. Is this what you are describing (and even if not thanks of reminding me). I cant manage an attack this way unless I pull tongue back so my ?’s.
Thanks,
Rod


Rod,

Sounds exactly like the plan. Just a slighty different way of coming to the same place. Perhaps Manley's description is even more helpful than my own understanding. Or at the very least another insight adding clarity to our understanding.

In only the past five years or so I've finally dwelved into examining the tongue usage which many other trumpet players insist is helpful to their ability to play better high notes. My thoughts on the subject are various. More like questions rather than thoughts actually. Such as,

1. Is the Tongue Controlled Embouchure related to my described tongue penetration and bell tone practice?

2. Do some trumpet players push their tongue forward in order to have it assist and/or stabilize the lower or upper lip? All while playing high notes that is?

My described idea on this matter is derived in part to my use of alternative or experimental embouchures oths. While playing the trumpet on my most experienced chop setting I've never found any sugnificant use to a tongue arch. Yet once I began tryig the Stevens system? You know the real screamer method? Oddly enough my use of a forward tongue really cuts it. I still do not believe on the "faster air" explanation but this hardly matters to me. After all just trying to prove a point isn't my goal. So I digress. But continuing,

Could the tongue's closeness to the lips act in part like a walking cane? In other words using a third point of support in order to stabilize a developing embouchure?

3. Perhaps some physical consideration other than the two I've tried to illustrate in words?

If we ask the right questions we're beginning the process of critical thinking. Which to me has been essential just in the developent of the chops I have now.

PS: Even though I oppose the explanation many have offered to describe the effectiveness of what they see in the tongue theory I still don't oppose the use of that which these people describe as a "tongue arch". Perhaps this is personal growth on my part. I try my best these days not to upset people with my opposition to the terminology. Because even I will admit that a forward tongue does truly help in executing high notes. For some people that is. But it is a touchy subject. And if I involve myself in excessive controversy then I may be to blame for causing confusion. So?

For now I usually tend to let the whole matter ride. Because if a flame war starts it limits my effectiveness.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:


1. Is the Tongue Controlled Embouchure related to my described tongue penetration and bell tone practice?

2. Do some trumpet players push their tongue forward in order to have it assist and/or stabilize the lower or upper lip? All while playing high notes that is?


1. Absolutely different to what you described.

2. Yes. TCE practice is tongue forward (very different to your description in your first post) in all registers.

trumpetplanet (aka Rich) posts here regularly. He is the main UK TCE guy, so worth hitting him up about the TCE concepts.

Best,
Mike
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now this is kind of weird. I go through periods where I do extra practice on the rim and the X-piece. The other day, I was playing on the X-Piece and my chops automatically went into a Superchops style position. I had learned Superchops from Callet years ago. It worked fine for me, but I don't know how much 'extra' it gave me at the time. Also, I found I couldn't do certain jazz articulations I wanted to do, so I switched back to traditional tonguing. But, now that it happened automatically, it just feels natural and I can do everything I usually do.

I don't want to say I am using TCE because that seems pretty extreme..But I am tonguing through the teeth now in all registers and everything is very 'forward'. Certainly didn't plan for this to happen, but I'm going with it for now! Best, Lex
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel
I use no tongue forward except to assure my lips are not fully together (to a point comfortable to me - 2/3 to 3/4 on top lip). I have never worried about tongue position other than for clean quick articulation, and I can assure you that no part of the tongue is forward of the rim after assuring an appeture. This does not work for me unless I employ the air to get the air to start the lips (sure tongue moves but not in the ‘anchor position - seems to go where it needs without thought). Now I am not a hi note guy and the hi G is my top tone in public or in performance so I am not equating it with any type of hi note playing other than making the notes I have stronger, easier, and more powerful. I took off 46 years after 1969 and had nothing but desire when I came back and my biggest goal is simply to have a 3 octave F# when needed every time needed. When the aperture is right and the lips stay relaxed under the MP it seems all needed is the right amount of air and support. This simple thing doesn’t open the heavens but does give me more strength and confidence. I saw quite a few original Herman and Rich charts in the 60’s and only saw 1 hi A written, so the G seems more than enough for anywhere I am likely to play these days. There is so much more I need than a hi A or dbl. My question was is the aperture what you establish or do you actually push tongue on attack, this sees very different to me.
Rod
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Now this is kind of weird. I go through periods where I do extra practice on the rim and the X-piece. The other day, I was playing on the X-Piece and my chops automatically went into a Superchops style position. I had learned Superchops from Callet years ago. It worked fine for me, but I don't know how much 'extra' it gave me at the time. Also, I found I couldn't do certain jazz articulations I wanted to do, so I switched back to traditional tonguing. But, now that it happened automatically, it just feels natural and I can do everything I usually do.

I don't want to say I am using TCE because that seems pretty extreme..But I am tonguing through the teeth now in all registers and everything is very 'forward'. Certainly didn't plan for this to happen, but I'm going with it for now! Best, Lex


Welcome back to BE.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! Oh yeah..it probably is. I’m doing TOL all the time. Although I don’t play double pedals…..But I lip buzz them or play them on a didge sometimes Well you and Callet always had a lot of similarities I thought..at least from his older stuff. It’s funny, cats who don’t know a lot about BE tend to think it’s about playing all ‘rolled in’ for some reason. The guys I know who really use it, don’t feel that way. Fairly recently I was talking to a pretty well-known Broadway lead guy about it and we agreed the ‘roll-in’ and ‘roll-out’ exercises are all about teaching the chops a range of motion so they can find ‘stasis’. One thing I find interesting is that when I was studying Superchops type stuff with Callet, I was consciously doing this stuff with my tongue, and I couldn’t do certain things I wanted to with the tongue like that. Now that it just happened unconcsiously, using the rim buzzing and X-Piece.. I have no problem doing anything I was doing before. Best, Lex
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..regarding „tongue penetration“...

… I play trumpet for fun in my basement and do a lot of analytical work and experiments around mouthpiece and embouchure configurations – at the end I seem to follow the personal path of Mr. Callet over decades in elaborating and not performing on stage…..that is honestly said to give you a chance to classify my contributions.

I learned from Lynn’s MHM as well as from Callet’s SC/TCE method. There was some period using BE as well in the following time order: BE-MHM-TCE-MHM-TCE….(all other known methods were touched as well of course).

As a longtime advocate of shallow and narrow Maynard like v-cups I always found a forward tongue and at least tip of the tongue between the teeth beneficial to get the air stream channeled in the right way. I always found tonguing on the backside of the upper teeth (like most) or anchoring the tip only behind the lower teeth still left my air column in the mouth cavity a bit unorganized.

Regarding Lynn’s rim practice I have to say that I barely could get a little melody on the rim until I consciously changed to a TCE configuration in my mouth – suddenly sound and little melodies evolved. I therefore asked Lynn about his tongue configuration but he does not use a tongue between the teeth. I think I finally got the necessary compression and correct air stream to make the rim sound by using a TCE like configuration. Here the spit buzz on the rim works as well as a kind of articulation.

Doing a pure TCE like configuration – anchoring tip of the tongue between lower teeth and lower lip - and articulating with the upper area of the tongue just behind the tip of the tongue against the upper teeth keeping the back of the tongue arched and forward, it seems that the “rimless” Maynard mouthpieces don’t work as good as the Callet mouthpieces regarding spit buzz: there has to be some seal to the rim which is better accomplished by a little inner rim edge. I know from Lynn that Maynard used much more mouthpiece/lip pressure as done by Lynn. This has to be true especially when using the MF convex v-cup design to get a seal.

With MHM and appropriate MF hardware configuration articulation seems to be catchier on the other side using TCE playing long notes is more challenging. But both will clearly give you instantly a better range and more duration and a full sound.

Currently I tried Jet-Tone MF, GB NY4, Giardinelli MF1, LynnFlex, Stomvi GHM and Monette BL5 with TCE and struggled until I changed to Callet X5 or Callet V.F. 17-s.

I know this could be posted in the TCE forum but it seemes to get its right place here as well.

We will see, what the future will bring…..
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey shak! Great post man. You know, I notice it's a little harder for me to rim buzz with this configuration I'm using now with the tongue. There is an endurance factor right now with this. Right when I start playing, I have no problem improving right up to the G above double C..like it was nothing (I mean, I can feel it in my core muscles though!) but this level of ease and relaxation doesn't last too long. If this is just a factor of my getting used to a new embouchure position, then that would be great - because I could just build some endurance with this. I mean it just feels so comfortable and relaxed to play this way. The sound is also HUGE. I've been using the Legends Holton MF1 as my main small group jazz mouthpiece, but also going to other pieces, like the Manley Jazz3 (this is a definite Maynard design, straight V medium-shallow cup). So I have to see if I can build endurance with this position so the first thing that gets tired is my core muscles. If I could have this feel of ease in my chops from low F# to G above double C, that would be fantastic! Best, Lex

p.s. - How can I get you to sell me that BL5? What cool mouthpieces do you want? I have a Holton MF3..We could do that and some $$. I have a Legends FBL TSX and TS that I'm not using since I got the MF1. Also the Stomvi GHM, which is a smaller diameter and a GREAT piece! I think I have the 5, 5.5, and 6 couplers with that. A Callet JAZZ.. I have a Legends CHAOS top which is extremely small at .560 and the very shallow C cup configuration. It's a SCREAMING mouthpiece. It's so radical, Derek can't even post it on his website!
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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haney,
I actually push my tongue way forward on many attacks. And esp when I was practicing those exercises that open up the sound and lower register on the shallower mouthpieces.

My analysis is that this sets the lips in a better position to stay more open and release a larger volume of sound/air. Coupled with a more open throat and back-bore combination this can make even the smallest mouthpieces sound as big as a house.

However the actual pressure that the tongue places upon the lips tends to expose the sharp edges of standard mouthpieces to the lip. The reason I use Al Cass and many of us ought to as well. They're hard to find and you wouldnt want to bore one out such as I prescribe but you can have them duplicated. Then customize the dupe.

As to whether the described tonguing between lips technique has any similarity to TCE? I dont know but believe that it may cover similar ground.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel,
Thanks - that seems a step beyond what I currently do, using tongue between lips only before initial attack, kind of a reminder to keep my lips loose under the MP. The appeture closes after I pull tongue back and just seems to keep me from starting to play with any tension in the lips. Hasn’t cured it but it seems to help me. Thanks for the explanation and clearing up my mis-interpretation. Hi G is high to me and I have no insights to playing up there, but I have tried enough to know that anything that gets you there with a good sound and some controland doesn’t hurt you must have something going for it. I’m waiting on someone to tell me how Lewis Dowedsdell plays like he does in his sleep 😴
Thanks
Rod
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Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Lionel,
Thanks - that seems a step beyond what I currently do, using tongue between lips only before initial attack, kind of a reminder to keep my lips loose under the MP. The appeture closes after I pull tongue back and just seems to keep me from starting to play with any tension in the lips. Hasn’t cured it but it seems to help me. Thanks for the explanation and clearing up my mis-interpretation. Hi G is high to me and I have no insights to playing up there, but I have tried enough to know that anything that gets you there with a good sound and some controland doesn’t hurt you must have something going for it. I’m waiting on someone to tell me how Lewis Dowedsdell plays like he does in his sleep 😴

Thanks
Rod


Always appreciate the good words. Perhaps I should have emphasized that these bell tones with lip penetration well into the mouthpiece were initially designed to broaden the sound of a shallow mouthpiece in the lower register. Practice designed ftom second line G to low F# only. With the hopes that this tonguing technique would modify the airflow through the embouchure/cup throughout the range of the instrument.

I suppose one could use the described attack in the upper register too. I've been doing this for 42 years of my 53 on the trumpet and the technique is thus ingrained. I'd almost have to think about what it is that I do to attack a high note. As whatever Im doing? Its all auto-pilot now.

The more and more I study and research upper register development the more I like to seek simple solutions. Both to the questions others have and my own. And what this observation has shown me is that the shortest path to a professional result in the upper register probably revolves around these concepts.

1. Bravery. Sorry this is no game for the faint of heart. The personality of a lead player at least in his effforts behind the horn must be aggressive.
2. Breathing and stance critical. Do not ignore Maynard's videos on breathing & stance. Nothing more valuable in the world can be found.
3. Mouthpiece selection. This is probably critical to the less gifted. And still helpful to those naturally blessed.
4. A fair understanding of the physics.

Physics used to be my major focus of thought. Until I realized that,
A. No one was listening to me and,
B. Mouthpieces can cover up many glaring embouchure faults. Why try and explain the difference between Maggio and Stevens systems if no one pays much attention to me anyway?

Mouthpieces and breathing solve many a register issue. They may not make you Lin Biviano but they will allow you to be the best you're able.

I see most stock mouthpieces as being suited more to classical. Certainly not for lots of blowing above high C. And the sharp edges on Bach and many others are just awful. That is for high notes andmost players. Esp for the receded jaw trumpet.

What we really need is a line of stock pieces no smaller than a throat of a #24. That and no deeper than the Schilke B cup. Next, the rim contour should follow a perfect radius with a well tounded bite.

Not your cup of tea? No problem as many stock pieces exist by other companies. But the above suggestion would largely fix half of all young players. That's if you can get them to listen.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel
I played a 7c back when I was able to play and had a pretty much full time hi A. Never saw music written above that and only used higher note for a streetcar at end of tunes when appropriate, they really weren’t notes I could control or play, just hit at times. In the 60’s I had breath that wouldn’t end and a strong right hand so it wasn’t really anything I want to duplicate. I moved to a much narrower piece as a result of a trade that came with an old Callet Buddy X5. About .620 with a 25 throat. I fell in love with this rim and everything became better, sound and range wise. I then started doing some work with Jim New and combined the x5 rim with the MF funnel type cup and hit magic for me. Everything turned better, can play longer with a better tone than the 7c. This was combined with a slight Embouchere change that wasn’t conscious but that I just fell into (a little more upper lip). You can order this MP thru Jim called the Buddy MF, Jim has it punched in with a 25 throat, he could easily make a bigger throat. The rim has NO bite and moves very easily on the lips. I have 2-3 Buddy X5 rims with the deeper cup if you would like to try, I feel the comfort of the piece is worth trying and it hits the buttons you’ve mentioned.
Rod
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