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Whole E. Cow - I think I'm using BE!



 
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:43 pm    Post subject: Whole E. Cow - I think I'm using BE! Reply with quote

Yep... I was just doing my practice on the rim and X-Piece the other day, and my chops automatically went into this position and I am tonguing through my teeth throughout the whole range of the horn. I just was looking through my old copy of BE. Well, it's not really old since I scanned it! But I bought BE from Jeff years back - when people still made $$ selling hardcopy books! My how times have changed. So, anyway, I think what happened to me is similar to Jeff's experiences on pg.49 of the BE book. I think I once had a Bobby DeNicola BE model mouthpiece..but I'll bet it would be too big for me now diameter-wise. Anyway, I'm not sure exactly why my chops just automatically 'morphed over' to this setting, but I am trying it out..feels very good and the tone is very big/rich with lots of overtones. Best, Lex
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm not mistaking, the BE Nicola mpc is the same diameter as a Bach 7C. Do you play something smaller than that?

Also, maybe Jeff will chime in, but I believe his tonguing-through-the-teeth is an exercise, not something he advocates as one's normal playing position.

(That doesn't mean you can't have that relation, just clarifying that I think he uses it as an exercise vs. a normal use.)
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one I had was supposed to be around a 101/2C..The modern 101/2C's are around .640. I am playing diameters from .610-.630 these days.

From what I recall, Jeff teaches that you can use TOL all the time if it feels right for you, but it's not necessary. Best, Lex
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
The one I had was supposed to be around a 101/2C..The modern 101/2C's are around .640. I am playing diameters from .610-.630 these days.

From what I recall, Jeff teaches that you can use TOL all the time if it feels right for you, but it's not necessary. Best, Lex


Lex, you are correct on both counts.

Regarding TOL, it is something that is very tricky to write about. Some people (not you) strongly resist the very idea of it, and are even threatened by it. So, I phrased it in the book on page 17 as "a means to an end, and not an end unto itself." That took away most of the threat, and allowed most players to start experimenting with it.

But that fact is, all of my advanced students use it for virtually all playing, and wouldn't think of going back.

People new to BE tend to focus on the RI/RO exercises. But TOL is perhaps the most fundamental exercise in BE, and yields the overall greatest benefit.

One small example. A pro (great guy) flew into town a few months back, and took a lesson. His chops were messed up and getting worse. He had totally ignored TOL when going through the book. So, we spent about two hours learning how to properly do TOL! For him, it was a revelation. His playing is now transformed, and he is improving in leaps and bounds.

So simple, yet so powerful.

Jeff
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I find is that TOL has increased the relaxation in my playing and it is so easy to produce a HUGE sound. There is still an endurance factor involved though. For awhile, I can easily play from Low F# to G above double C but, then, I start to get tired and have to take a break. With my old way of playing, I didn't have to do that. But this way really feelsbetter and more relaxed. I think I am engaging my core muscles even more and taking the work off the chops even more as well. I just have to see if I can build up my endurance. I'm heading out to a 4 hour small group jazz gig in Manhattan in a little while..That should be a good test of things. I was just playing along with some Lee Morgan solos and could do all the inflections and everything with my tongue like this. When I consciously learned the Superchops style from Callet years ago, I wasn't able to do the inflections with my tongue this way. Go figure..

Quote:
Regarding TOL, it is something that is very tricky to write about. Some people (not you) strongly resist the very idea of it, and are even threatened by it.

What do you mean? I'm verythreatened by your tongue! Oh God, that sounds so weird!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was revelatory, Lex. Thanks to you both.
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"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis." Chet Baker

Benge 3X
Martin Committee (1956)
Connstellation 38B (1959)
Hans Hoyer G10 French Horn
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
That was revelatory, Lex. Thanks to you both.

YW

Jeff, I was reading your thoughts about TOL in the BE book again. Very interesting. Makes a lot of sense to me. I know players who have told me of similar breakthroughs with their chops. Their playing was going downhill and using the tongue through the teeth brought everything back together. Of course it depends on the player, and it's definitely not a 'cure-all'.

I'm pretty sure you've checked out Lynn's video 'Got High Notes', but do you actually own the Mindless Hardware Technology? I wondered if you had any thoughts about why my rim buzzing and playing on the X-Piece brought me to the TOL. Best, Lex
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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the sense that a player can have a lot of specific problems, no, TOL is not a cure-all. That is the purpose of the BE method as a whole. But TOL plays a huge role in getting the lips moving more or less in the right direction.

A lot of visitors to Trumpet Herald struggle. My feeling is that if every one of them did TOL (correctly) for 10 minutes every day, that within 2 months most of their problems would begin to disappear. At least, that is my direct experience in using TOL over a wide spectrum of players.

I have no information about Lynn Nicholson that I can share publicly. Further, I haven't seen the video, and I can't offer any specific reason for your shift in tonguing. Maybe your brain got tired of working too hard.

Basically, I don't usually analyze the effect of other methods, even if I know the method very well. I can speculate, but that is not where my real expertise is located. When teaching, I focus on how well the student is playing the BE exercises. If the exercises are being done correctly, then problems tend to quickly resolve, and development proceeds.

Jeff
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool deal Jeff. I know several players up here who have used the BE method with very good success. The next time I run across one, I'll have to ask him if he uses TOL all the time. I'll keep you posted on how all of this goes! All the best, Lex
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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had a lot of success with introducing players to TOL as described in the BE book. Specifically doing scales in the way that the first TOL exercise does. Their clarity of tone, quality of attack and projection always instantly improves. They can often also hear and feel when things start to close down, usually because they can't keep the forward tongue (or open jaw - to me that's a chicken/egg thing).

I've had adult pupils report back having doubled their stamina in a couple of weeks from learning to do TOL.

Although I'm quite strictly TCE in my playing I have used the BE book a lot with pupils and I'm sure that if I'd discovered it first then I'd never have gone anywhere else.
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

May I ask, what is TOL?
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
May I ask, what is TOL?


It is an abbreviation for "Tongue On Lips". In this context we are referring to an exercise that is a part of the Balanced Embouchure method.
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What to understand TCE? Read this website: http://tonguecontrolled.info/
5-octave warm-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH4yJVfbE_I
Online lessons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukUH6N5lS5o
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
I've had a lot of success with introducing players to TOL as described in the BE book. Specifically doing scales in the way that the first TOL exercise does. Their clarity of tone, quality of attack and projection always instantly improves. They can often also hear and feel when things start to close down, usually because they can't keep the forward tongue (or open jaw - to me that's a chicken/egg thing).

I've had adult pupils report back having doubled their stamina in a couple of weeks from learning to do TOL.

Although I'm quite strictly TCE in my playing I have used the BE book a lot with pupils and I'm sure that if I'd discovered it first then I'd never have gone anywhere else.


Rich, that is very nice of you. I don't visit the Callet forum much anymore, so I was unaware until recently of your emergence as a Callet teacher. Based on what I have seen, you really know your stuff. I'm glad there are players out there such as yourself who keep adding clarity to Jerry's unique methods.

For players interested in how the RO (Roll-out exercises) in BE were created, I posted some information about it a long time ago in the Callet forum. I did a quick search, and the post is still there: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16568&sid=fe87bef32b250e6f7d31e629b9f7d3a2

Kyle and I go back a long time. I have the greatest respect for what you and Kyle are doing. As you know, it's not easy penetrating the density of "mainstream pedagogy." Best of luck to you!

Jeff
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
I'm glad there are players out there such as yourself who keep adding clarity to Jerry's unique methods.

Kyle and I go back a long time. I have the greatest respect for what you and Kyle are doing. As you know, it's not easy penetrating the density of "mainstream pedagogy." Best of luck to you!


Thank you Jeff, it's very much appreciated.
(PM sent too)
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What to understand TCE? Read this website: http://tonguecontrolled.info/
5-octave warm-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH4yJVfbE_I
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
My feeling is that if every one of them did TOL (correctly) for 10 minutes every day, that within 2 months most of their problems would begin to disappear. At least, that is my direct experience in using TOL over a wide spectrum of players.


Two months? I noticed an immediate improvement since reading this last week. I've always played with the assumption that the lips should be touching, as in making the MMM sound, but this morning I realized that having the lips apart allows more room for the lower lip to move, especially playing high notes when my lower lip pushes out and up. For me it seems that having the lips touch while playing causes them to interfere with each other.

Kent
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
I've always played with the assumption that the lips should be touching, as in making the MMM sound, but this morning I realized that having the lips apart allows more room for the lower lip to move, especially playing high notes when my lower lip pushes out and up. For me it seems that having the lips touch while playing causes them to interfere with each other.


Well this is the sort of problem that would fix itself by following the BE system, and you'd never need to think about it either!
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What to understand TCE? Read this website: http://tonguecontrolled.info/
5-octave warm-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH4yJVfbE_I
Online lessons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukUH6N5lS5o
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
oxleyk wrote:
I've always played with the assumption that the lips should be touching, as in making the MMM sound, but this morning I realized that having the lips apart allows more room for the lower lip to move, especially playing high notes when my lower lip pushes out and up. For me it seems that having the lips touch while playing causes them to interfere with each other.


Well this is the sort of problem that would fix itself by following the BE system, and you'd never need to think about it either!


I did, years ago, but never saw this improvement.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
I did, years ago, but never saw this improvement.


Yeah, it’s quite remarkable how an exercise can affect you in different ways at different times!
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What to understand TCE? Read this website: http://tonguecontrolled.info/
5-octave warm-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH4yJVfbE_I
Online lessons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukUH6N5lS5o
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, many do not do TOL correctly. It is an exercise that appears so simple that almost nobody considers the possibility that it could be misinterpreted.

Left-brained players (people who favor making sense out of the world through analytic thought) tend to have the most difficulty. They typically ask questions like, "how far apart should the teeth be?", as if they could actually control such a specific variable with any precision. Instead, TOL is played by feel and sound, with very little other analysis needed.

I focus about 90% on how it sounds and 10% on how it looks. And in my teaching, those percentages hold true for most of the BE exercises.

Jeff
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