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Practice to Exhaustion?


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GlenO
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:01 pm    Post subject: Practice to Exhaustion? Reply with quote

They say do not practice to exhaustion, but what exactly is the sensation of exhaustion? i can always play lower notes at the end of a hard practice, but not always the upper end of my range. Occasionally, i do the Schilke power exercise and my ability to play after that is limited. Is that exhaustion for this purpose?
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're losing range, you're practicing well into exhaustion territory.

If you find intonation starting to go downhill then you're heading that way.


People talk about the necessity of many hours practice to get good... They're absolutely right - but that means intelligent practice within your limits, not simply overdoing it until you can barely get a note out.
The key to getting those hours in while you're not capable of long practice sessions is to rest plenty (about as much as you play) and to keep sessions sensible length - a few sensible length sessions per day will get you much, much further than one overdone session of the same overall length.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's helpful to clarify this a bit. not only do you not practice to exhaustion, you try not to get anywhere near that state.
usually when you start a session and can tell that your range is more limited, you have had a heavy practice the day before. this is not that hard. develop a feel for when you should stop practicing. make a mental note of how much time you can handle, and how many notes you can play in your high register, and go from there.
it goes without saying to pace yourself and have small resting periods during practice.
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chrisneverve
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve heard the same things about practicing. Rest as much as you play, stop when you feel tired, be very careful about playing loud, etc. Everyone is different and can do different things. I routinely set out to exhaust myself in all aspects or playing. Range, volume, tonging, fingers, everything. I am very careful not to injure my face. I think that as long as you are smart about it, playing to exhaustion is a good thing. Caruso, Bill Adam, and several others have dedicated exercises to exhaust the muscles needed to play trumpet.

If you never take yourself to the edge and beyond in practice what will you do when you get there in performance?
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tim_wolf
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's really interesting, is how Chris Martin will practice to the point of exhaustion several times a week. I'd say going to the point where "a second line G is a challenge" is exhaustion. Obviously works for him.
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not practiced until exhaustion? What harm does it do?
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jazzvuu
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
Why not practiced until exhaustion? What harm does it do?


Well for young players or folks that are not very attentive to what they are actually doing to play, playing to exhaustion usually means that the players start doing extra things to compensation for the weaken state. More tension or pressure come to mind. There is also the damage to lips that is not always productive. In the Sarah's Horn Hangout interview with Chris Martin, he said that young players do go through a rite of passage of having to spend a large amount of time to learn technique and fundamentals but that is a professional, he keeps the idea of the same amount horn time to rest time. Allen Vizzutti talks about playing to the slights feeling of fatigue and resting. The idea is that if you always strive for playing on optimal physical condition, you will not doing efficient things in your way of playing and re-enforce those good habits.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mental exhaustion is different from physical exhaustion. When practice starts getting unproductive, at least for me, that means it is time to regroup a bit so that mental exhaustion doesn't keep me from productive practice. As you get older, physical feedback is always present. Honest situational awareness is a necessary component for me to keep it real. In the words of Dirty Harry, "a man's got to know his limitations".
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Practice to Exhaustion Reply with quote

when you take lessons to play the trumpet you are trying to know more about the instrument. As you do this and get into more and more serious skills and practice, feeling exhausted is sometimes a reality of growing. Part of learning to master the instrument is learning to build and master your own physical and mental approach. It should be come instinctive to say, "I need to walk away for 5-10 minutes." and then come back perhaps. It is different for everyone, even the greatest players, and Chris Martin is an animal. The rest time you have to help the chops and clear the head can be as valuable as a 2 hours session working on serious stuff.
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robbrand
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a trumpet player I'n not really qualified to offer advice, but I think there is an analogy with other physical processes. Inexperienced or novice runners should take care to overdo things, while building up core strength over time. If you overdo things, you risk injury at worst or burnout and lack of progress at best. But as an experienced and reasonably competitive runner, I not only do, but have to push myself to the point of exhaustion sometimes if I want to make progress. Even so, the emphasis is on "sometimes". A good practice routine is interspersed with easy days, and even the odd recovery day in which you don't do anything at all. After a hard long-distance race, I wouldn't even think of trying to repeat it the next day!
On the trumpet, I know from experience that if I push it for two or three days in a row to the point where I struggle to reach my high range, my performance deteriorates subsequently. So now if I reach that point, I take it easy the next day. I also find that an enforced layoff of a day or two occasionally works wonders for me! But then again, I'm only a modest amateur.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stress-to-failure is a strength training technique. Trumpet playing is about control and endurance which, while requiring of some strength, is compromised by excessive "bulking up". As with most things, what is useful in intelligent moderation can be harmful in excess.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't practice enough, then you won't develop the conditioning, fitness and skills that you're capable of.

If you practice too much, or don't allow enough time for rest and recovery between sessions, then your chops will stay perpetually worn out and tired. Keep this up, and you can do some serious damage, like "embouchure overuse syndrome," a.k.a., chronic fatigue, which can require a lengthy and frustrating rehabilitation program to restore playing ability.

There's a sweet spot in between these two extremes. Play smart, listen to what your body is telling you, and you can find it.
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GlenO
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After posting this, I have made a lot of progress using David Hickman's "Beyond the C" book (available on his website). Timing is built into the exercises - short phrases with rests and a specified rest time between exercises - usually 10 sometimes 30 seconds.
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vwag
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My two cents, as a growing comeback player, is that FOR ME playing until I'm exhausted (or just really tired) is good, so long as I maintain form. Once exhausted you may change things to try to be able to keep playing, and that defeats the purpose.

- Keep your form
- If you miss a note, stop after attempting the 3rd time, and then
- Walk away for awhile (15 min, an hour, a day... whatever feels right)

Just the simple Caruso 6 note exercise has personally helped me break through barriers on pieces that I couldn't previously finish.
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posthorn_kelsey@yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: exhaustion Reply with quote

I like to end practice sessions feeling "good"
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
Why not practiced until exhaustion? What harm does it do?


a fair question.
we are talking about the muscles that surround the mouth.
say if you are working on your bench press, or arm curls, or squats, you would not do all that much overload work. now each person is in different health and can handle different amounts of stress. still and all most of the guys have a good understanding of their limits and have heavy and light days. most people? they go into the gym and don't do much more than oil the machine with moderate work, and stay in fine physical shape with that. everyone has been injured and understands that being a hero is not worth it.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's important to distinguish between your face being exhausted and your body being exhausted.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
Why not practiced until exhaustion? What harm does it do?


Once in a while is okay C/J. Maybe in some cats up to three times/week. However I know my limits and would never tire or tear myself out so badly as to actually burn out my chops 3x/week. To my thinking?

Better to take a whole week off than to do something that exhaustive. Also? I'm an older dude now. And surely* don't want to knowingly aggravate any areas of my chops or teeth which have held the cumulative of 53 & 1/2 years practice and performance.

Also C/J from my vantage point? I tend to think that the great majority of all really good trumpet players are probably putting in 50% to 100% more practice time than necessary. And that much of this additional practice has pushed them all too close to tge threshold of over-trained chops. In fact Lynn (yes that "Lynn"!) replied to my email a couple weeks ago. He explained how one of his peers (another incredible playing cat!) Is still practicing too much.

Also? Long time, no sea! Why not give me a call? At least give me a chance to complain to someone about that minor but nasty leg wound I suffered last week. Gracious!

BTW,

All good posts here folks!
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
Why not practiced until exhaustion? What harm does it do?


Well well - having been there having done that I would certainly issue a word of caution. Our chops are built out of muscles tissues hence as prone to overuse as any other muscles.
You gotta develop a sense of knowing the state of your chops, getting keenly aware of when the embouchure is about to break down (=meaning that you suddenly get aware of pressing, not being able to pucker (or whatever position), when attacks don´t result in a clear sound, when your lips feel numb and that G on top of staff begins to feel "feeble").
I don´t mean to say that you should not reach this point, you will have to meet it in order to get knowledge about it.
Most athletic training is performed in intervals - a good model for chops building.
In fact I would like to state that for amateurs, there is always the risk of over doing things. I had played for over 55 years when I got the time to practice more and so I did.....
And why not give this a few minutes: http://www.embouchures.com/
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: Practice to Exhaustion? Reply with quote

GlenO wrote:
They say do not practice to exhaustion, but what exactly is the sensation of exhaustion?


Who is "they"? There is a big difference between a developing player or a comeback player hitting a wall and a strong developed player over working the established embouchure.

In the case of the developing player, the corners start burning, maybe air starts leaking out on the sides and the embouchure breaks down. This is normally limited to playing higher notes. This is a good safely valve. Put the horn down for a 24 hour reboot. This is more muscle fatigue than total physical exhaustion. You will build strength by hitting a wall this way.

In the case of a developed players who's embouchure is strong, overplaying and reaching a state of exhaustion can cause a negative reaction the next day. Common sense says if you overdo anything you can hurt yourself.

My philosophy based on Caruso has always been "play with abandon". Maybe I am not the best person to comment on this thread

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