Gradual Application/Transition to SC

[tptguy]

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Author Gradual application/transition to SC
Lee Adams
Superchops Forum Moderator

Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 282
From: Atlanta, Ga
Posted: 2001-11-25 01:04
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Hi
I am opening this thread to draw comments and suggestions on gradually working into the SC concepts. I have copied over an applicable posting that deals with some of these issues.

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histrumpet


Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 15
From: Mobile, Alabama
Posted: 2001-11-23 22:37
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Tom and Lee,
It's good to have you guys in the house. I have started working on my SC conversion with some help from Lex. They just don't come much better than that. I have been reading Jeff Smiley's BE and through some of his exercises have managed to get my chin to bunch and not flatten. I have jumped the one hurdle but now comes the next, the tongue. I smiled when I was reading in James about taming my tongue, I really don't think James meant to apply it to SC. I'm having some difficulty with tongue forward position as it touches the bottom lip, archs and touches the inside of the top lip, and then the top teeth. I am having problems keeping it in position when I pressure up to buzz. I think my jaw may be moving, pulling the tongue and lips, teeth apart. This sounds like a problem that time will have to take care of. Any suggestions. Thanks for you hard work and dedication for this latest improvement on the forum.

Bruce


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Lee Adams


Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 20
From: Atlanta, Ga
Posted: 2001-11-24 00:06
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Bruce

Welcome!

I have seen and heard the scenario that you mention from many early stage super choppers. One of the reasons that the forward tongue is initially difficult if you did not gravitate toward it naturally is that it goes hand in hand with the closed embouchure styles. Such as SC or Caruso.
Tonguing the SC or Caruso way with an open setting is very difficult.
I have seen very good results from students who while knowing are attepting the forward tonguing as much as possible can still use their older tonguing and work on the center compression and reducing the corner tension as they go along. Some players like Tom Turner and his son Russell quickly acclimated to SC because they were fairly close to it already. Not everyone is that fortunate. Many players in school or other playing obligations simply can not crash and burn for months retraining everything which sometimes would be the case.
So the more gradual approach is needed. I have found that if a conscious effort is made at least every day to spend at least 15-30 minutes doing low register articulations with one octave scales etc then soon the new tonguing will become easier and progress in a way that the player can still play their old way and still make progress with the new.Practice session times can gradually increase.
I know in my personal experience and that of many of my students that the more control that is attained with the SC center compression embouchure the easier it becomes to tongue in the forward thru the teeth position.
In fact in my first year of learning SC. I convinced myself that my tongue was too long and could never rest forward and articulate thru the teeth. However I was determined to learn and develop all of the other SC characteristics as best as I could. I just felt that the tongue thing would never happen. Actually I was so dependent on a tongue position arched so high and drawn back so far while playing in an effort to gain air resistance to compensate for my open embouchure setting. That I never realized that my most natural least strained tongue position actually was/is forward and thru the teeth. I did not fully comprehend this until I had enough control of my chops to allow for the forward tongue position to maximize its benefits. So Bruce yes if you are getting some of the SC concepts in working order ahead of feeling confident about the tongue don't despare because the tongue will catch up as long as you work at it daily.

As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429
Lee Adams



[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2001-11-24 00:57 ]

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bugleboy


Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 39
From: Tampa Bay, FL
Posted: 2001-11-24 01:20
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Lee,

You have hit on a very true and important similarity between SC and Caruso. Carmine advocated the tongue between the teeth as if spitting off a thread from the end ot the tongue. He felt that this would facillitate a correct lip position quicker then by not tonguing this way in the beginning. As the student became confidant with this tonguing and the embouchure developed, he fully expected the tongue to settle back somewhat where the the tip might just touch the lips when articulating as opposed to protruding through. Actually he didn't really care where the tongue ended up. He would get a student started with the between the lips method and then let it go where it wanted to.

I found a few months ago that by bringing my tongue more forward than what I had been doing, made some things start to work better than they had been. It seems like it's always possible that some simple basics can slip a little.

Regards,

Charles Raymond



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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2001-11-29 15:40
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Hey guys,
Just wanted to let you know I am still working on this transition. If I did not have all these good posts from others to read I could sure get discouraged. Thanks. I have made some progress producing a note or two, still sounds like I've got a sock stuck in the horn but they are recognizable notes. Thank you to Bruce Lee for taking time to talk to me the other day. I got to go try to dig this sock out of my horn, later.

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goldenhornplayer
Regular Member

Joined: Nov 23, 2001
Posts: 65
From: Ken Barnes
Posted: 2001-11-29 18:47
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To Histrumpet--Well, I've certainly been through the sock in the horn phase myself. In my case, it was caused by over doing a couple of things. First, it is possible to over-bevel the tongue to the extent that the top of the beveled tongue is pressing against the roof of the mouth. Don't do that!!!! Next, a common mistake is to make the top of the beveled tongue go up to press against the top lip. Don't do that either!! According to Jerome, the correct approach, in ascending, is to bring the top lip down to compress against the top of the beveled tongue. For beginners, the trick is to make yourself keep the tongue forward and the teeth open while you ascend. I'm still trying to make that automatic and it is getting easier.
_________________
Ken Barnes-Current Callet Student

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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2001-12-06 12:51
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Hey guys,
Just wanted to give a quick update on how things are going. I am in the middle of my second week with SC and am happy to report that while I have not made any giant leaps (which I never expect) I am making progress by inches. My tone in the lower register is improving as I keep the corners loose. I am concentrating on the long tones to build those SC muscles. When playing simple scales it is still hard as my tone suffers greatly. I am also spending alot of time lip buzzing when I cannot get to my horn. The buzzing seems to be helping some also. I will post again as things develope.
Bruce

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Lee Adams
Superchops Forum Moderator

Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 282
From: Atlanta, Ga
Posted: 2001-12-06 18:29
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Bruce

Great to hear your update on your continuing quest!

I would like to make a suggestion to you about lip buzzing.
I feel that that is O.K as long as you are doing it at least with the mouthpiece.
I say this because in order for most people to lip buzz without the mouthpiece requires them to stretch and draw their lips away from the center using a good bit of corner tension to hold the buzz. I actually go somewhat into a smile/stretch embouchure when I try to buzz without the mouthpiece. I feel that this would be training the wrong muscles.

If the buzzing is done with the mouthpiece then the muscles are focusing more towards the center providing that the SC concepts are being applied.

HTH
As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429
Lee Adams

[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2001-12-06 20:13 ]

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bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 1993
From: Tampa Bay, FL
Posted: 2001-12-06 18:58
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Lee,

FWIW, when I buzz without the mouthpiece, my lips are very much directed towards the center and with very little corner tension. Actually, it's pretty much the set up when I play the horn. Buzzing for me doesn't change between the lips, mouthpiece and horn.

You definitely don't want that stretch and smile setting.

Regards,

Charly



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Lee Adams
Superchops Forum Moderator

Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 282
From: Atlanta, Ga
Posted: 2001-12-06 20:12
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Bugleboy

Yes I see what you are saying. I have to admit that after learning the SC, Caruso style embouchure as we both use and have had advanced development in. It is easier for me to buzz without the mouthpiece and compress in the center than when I used a smile/stretch embouchure.
However I was responding to an SC newbie and wanted to ward off potential problems which I know can happen with lip buzzing and possibly going back into old habits etc....

I still feel that the best most accurate focusing of the playing muscles which we want to develop is done either with the mouthpiece or mouthpiece and horn together.

As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429

Lee Adams


[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2001-12-06 20:17 ]

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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2001-12-06 22:25
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Lee,
The mouthpiece is a good idea, I have noticed that when buzzing the mouthpiece it is easier to achieve the sound you are working for. Thanks for the warning about improper lip buzzing I sure would not want to go back to the stretched smile way of playing. Is this type of progress the norm for new SC players? Just trying to figure out if I'm on schedule with what is normal.
Bruce

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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2001-12-19 03:07
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Here's the latest:
I'm well into my fourth week with no improvement which led me to make a phone call to Mr. Callet. I was very suprised when he answered the phone. It wasn't a very wordy exchange just the facts. What are kind of horn are you playing and what mouthpiece. without any hesitation he told me that the mouthpiece I was using wasn't the right one and made his recomendation. In a couple of days I should have my new Callet mouthpiece, I hope to have a good report soon after. I had a feeling something was wrong, practicing 2 hours a day should bring better results than what I have gotten.

Bruce


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Lee Adams
Superchops Forum Moderator

Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 282
From: Atlanta, Ga
Posted: 2001-12-19 08:42
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Bruce

I remember recommending to you over the phone last week that the mouthpieces that you are using could be much more efficient and that the rims are probably too narrow and can pin the lips down inhibiting the range of motion in the embouchure. And further SC development. Thats why a good starting point is a Callet 7S/7S4, 10S/4 etc. Also the Northern Brass 4**** is becoming popular. http://www.northernbrass.com

Jerome Callet told you the same thing that the mouthpiece needs to be considered early and he is very correct.
I have seen Jerome work even with non SC players and improve their playing by getting them on a more efficient design, better rim contour, etc.

Im glad that Jerome Callet took on building better mouthpieces and horns. It was his initial research into embouchure teaching that led him into building mouthpieces and eventually horns.

As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429

Lee Adams




[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2001-12-19 20:44 ]

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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2001-12-27 18:31
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Hey guys,
Just an update on my quest for the SC embochure. Just wanted to assure everyone that I am not trying to dominate this particular thread but.......I am finishing my 5th week and I think I have made some progress today. I have been through alot of changes both physical and mental. The 1st week little or no sound, the second week I could play 2 notes none of them sounding good at all. 3rd week started questioning my mouthpiece selection and made a change to something even worse. 4th week got a DT-10 and found out just how unready I was for that but I kept it. Went back to my 1st mouthpiece selection. This week had some very minor improvements until today when I realized that the answer was on Callet's web page! After I saw the picture of him playing I realized I was not playing with loose corners but with a pucker! Kyle warned me against over doing it but I just couldn't see it. With the more natural, relaxed lip position I have added a few more notes to my range (haha) to a middle C and sometimes an E. I know it doesn't sound like much but after being stuck for 5 weeks on two notes, a low C and a G in the staff, this is major. I am using the center compression and trying to get the tongue in there but adding that one aspect kind of screws things up. I don't know if I have found the key to my break-through but I do see a chance for a great amount of improvement. Thanks to all of you who have been patient and adressed my questions with some great insight. This a great site for learning.

Bruce

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airegin
Veteran Member

Joined: Nov 08, 2001
Posts: 100
From: Marco Island, Fl
Posted: 2001-12-27 23:28
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man, i feel your pain. i too have gone back to just a couple of notes in an effort to keep things correct.

this is a great forum with patient and knowledgeable people.

keep working....it's just around the corner!

rob
_________________
Rob Lauderdale

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trickg
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Jan 03, 2002
Posts: 1444
From: Maryland
Posted: 2002-01-04 13:14
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I have a question. Does Jerry give a time frame for converting to Superchops or is it different with everyone? I don't know if I would jump right in if I thought I would crash and hardly be able to play for 6 months or more. At the moment, I'm playing in a Top-40/dance band that gigs fairly frequently. I'm getting by now and I'd like to make a change, but I don't think that I could go through a complete breakdown and have to stop playing with the band. Has anyone here been successful converting while they were still gigging?
_________________
Patrick Gleason
email me at: trickg1@hotmail.com

"...there's no sound in flutes. All I hear is noise." -- Buddy Rich

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ljazztrm
Regular Member

Joined: Dec 04, 2001
Posts: 60
From: New York, NY
Posted: 2002-01-04 15:04
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Jerry told me this was something I could do and still 'go back' to my old way of playing...for me the idea is to do the exercises and see how the effects creep into my normal playing. Jerry told me to give it a week...but I already have solid and balanced chops...(g above high c..strong endurance...etc). Hope this helps...All the best, Lex.

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Lex Grantham
Veteran Member

Joined: Nov 13, 2001
Posts: 340
From: East Texas
Posted: 2002-01-04 15:35
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When I was into SC after 6 months (October, 2000), I was having to play in a symphonic band, preparing for an upcoming fall concert. I had to rely on my previous way of playing because the SC concepts were too new for me to play that way already. That was only natural.

But there comes a time when a player will feel right about SC kicking in, and then he/she will certainly want to do that. When that happens, it is easy to return (every so often) to the old way of playing, but perserverance and determination start to have a "say so" about sticking with it. Takes a lot of patience.

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham


Various Authors


324 Posts
Posted - 10/29/2003 : 14:54:19
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Author Gradual application/transition to SC
histrumpet
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2002-01-04 18:49
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Hey all,
I made a choice to transition to SC about 6 weeks ago and it has been my personal experience that once my chops learned the center compression concept I had a hard if not impossible time going back to the way I was playing before. The muscle groups used in SC where so different from what I was using before that I had to do some demolition before I could start the new construction. I guess I'm just one of those all or nothing guys. As most players who have changed their embochure will tell you SC is not a shortcut or a gimmick, it takes time, hard work, and alot of patience. I am at the bottom of the crash and burn stage and now am making a little progress. To see where I've been just read my posts in the transition thread, not a pretty story. The upside is that all the support and help you need is right here on the forum. You guys who haven't made it to the break through keep on plugging.

Bruce

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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2002-01-19 12:29
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Hey guys,
I thought I would warm over another thread, I guess I could call it Bruce is continuing to work. (hehe) I'm sorry about dominating this thread but I guess I'm the only one who is still working on a transition, oh well here goes... week 8 and I think something clicked last night, my tone has improved a pretty good bit and it is a little easier to play. This does not last long but I have found that a short 5 min. break helps between 10-15 min. practice sessions. I have noticed that the muscles in the side of my face around my jaw are getting a good work out keeping the corners forward as opposed to pulling out in a smile. On a lighter note I have been looking at my DT-10 and trying to figure out what I could use it for. Maybe I will put it in a time capsule with my old bow tie I found yesterday while I was cleaning out my sock drawer. As always comments are welcome.

Bruce

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rch-tech
Veteran Member

Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 173
From: Madison, WI
Posted: 2002-01-21 14:20
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I feel your pain.
I've been on SC since September. (Really not full time though). Here it is 4 months later. I love my sound...LOVE IT. My range is finally back of to G and usually an A above the staff.
I am going back and workin on articulation right now because I feel I have neglected that. I also need to work on endurance. If you wanna compare notes you can read my journal at http://webpages.charter.net/rch-tech and click on the trumpet link.
I update it about every two weeks.
I will be rearranging it soon to put the 2001 stuff in a second link and the current stuff on the main journal page.
But for now, if you ever question your progress at least you'd have another "transitioner" to compare notes with.
I need that too.

[ This Message was edited by: rch-tech on 2002-01-21 14:21 ]

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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2002-01-23 20:41
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rch-tech,
Went to your site but could not open the links. I started with some home grown embochure that was worse than the smile my band director set me up with when I was in high school, that was about 1970 something. I had moderate success with it and played that way until I put my horn down a few years after I graduated, that was 1980 something. I dug the old Yamaha out of the closet a little over a year ago and started my comeback. After 9 months of killing myself I found I had not added any range and had no endurance. After reading posts on the Trumpet Herald I found out why it worked before and not now. Back then I had 5 or 6 hours to play, now with a job, a wife, and 3 children things have changed. I changed to Super Chops in Nov. and have found progress to be slooooow. One thing I have found is the aperture I am forming now produces a tighter air stream and the opening feels more verticle even though looking at it while lip buzzing it appears rounded. It feels like a string being pulled between my lips. My lower register is weak and forget about pedal tones for now, the best I have been able to get is an A below the staff. I have recently expanded my range to a middle C but it is not reliable. I am gaining some confidence as I can now play a scale from low C up to middle C in articulated quarter and sometime eight notes. My tone is not big and fat but it has improved. I may start calling this method Sloppy Chops because of all the spit that is produced. Hmmm, I wonder if we could start a thread for that. Anyway, I am glad I'm not alone in this boat, it gets frustrating at times but I'm just too hard headed to quit. Keep buzzin,
Bruce

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CRJAZZMAN
Regular Member

Joined: Nov 30, 2001
Posts: 86
From: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posted: 2002-01-24 23:19
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I'm with you on that "sloppy chops" comment. Production has definitely increased in the saliva dept! Makin' it by the gallon!
I started in Nov too...its coming along, just not as fast as I would like!
_________________
SC gave me a double C!
Matt Canfield
email crjazzman@yahoo.com

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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2002-01-25 00:08
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yea, my wife went to Wal Mart and bought me a mop bucket. She got a plastic one so I could put it over the end of my horn if I didn't need it to drain my horn into.

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rch-tech
Veteran Member

Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 173
From: Madison, WI
Posted: 2002-01-25 16:32
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Yeah, that site is really slow!

I can't afford my own host though =)

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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2002-01-28 12:59
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Okay, I can't stand it any longer, I GOTTA POST. I must be afflicted with a Compulsive Posting Disorder but here goes. I've been working real hard the last 2 months and nothing much has happened but this past weekend I may have started turning the corner. I had my signature Sloppy Chops mop bucket out in which to drain my horn and going through all the rituals I have developed to try and get my chops to work in the Super mode. I was struggling to play a decent low C minus any desirable tone when things just opened up, glissed up to a dubba C! .......Not really but I did find my balance on the low C. All this time I had not really paid much attention to what my bottom lip was doing or not doing. What it was not doing was buzzing. I will post more later, got to go back to work.