tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3380
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Perry dAndrea
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 136
From: San Francisco (formerly Athens, GA)
Posted: 2002-02-15 19:51
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I want to start this topic as a series breakthrough experiences encountered along the way by folks who are particularly undergoing major reconstruction of their emboucher toward SuperChops.
pd
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"Don't forget- P R A C T I C E ." -Doc Severinsen
[ This Message was edited by: Perry D'Andrea on 2002-08-29 15:19 ]
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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2002-02-16 07:53
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Perry,
Great post, in the past week or two I have started working on building the muscles waiting for the good sound to come. I have added a few notes on the top end and have found that articulating helps the note pop out, sometimes I even miss the note and get a higher one (shooting for an E in the staff and getting a G) My tone sounds small and stuffy for the first 5 to 10 minutes and opens up to a kind of shrill blat-blat tone, to one with a better core sound then the muscles tire and the sound goes to a fluttering something or another. When this happens I just go back to holding a playable note and articulate quarter or 8th notes until things come back into focus. The thing I have noticed is there seems to be more upper lip in the mouthpiece than I thought there should be, but this is when the range improves and the tone opens up some. In reality things are probably not as they feel and the chops are just finding the balance. Like you I have commited to skinning this bear no matter how long it takes and I have managed to get about 2 hours a day of practice time in breaking the time into a 1 hour session and a couple of shorter ones, usually about 30 min. each. I have started leaving the horn on the stand so I can pick it up when I get some free time. Lately trumpet playing has gotten a lot of my attention, I know the results will come. I will post more when I make some progress, Looking forward to spending some time with Lee Adams. Thanks for opening this thread.
Bruce
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rch-tech
Veteran Member
Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 173
From: Madison, WI
Posted: 2002-02-16 12:33
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I really notice a change when I stand up, nobody is in the house and a really blow through the horn. I find that I have no control if I play quiet and often miss the G's on top of the staff an land on an E instead.
However, when I put more air through, my sound is definitely improved over where I was before.
My new mouthpiece tires me out a bit fast than I'd like but that I can change at another time. I play on a GR 64.7ms and I think the alpha angle is too much. I have been working with Bruce Lee and he has been a great help. Unfortunately I've had my GR 64.7ms for too long and can't return is so I may be selling it off. But first I have to go to Dousman to the GR plant and try a few pieces. Bruce is suggesting going to an e62s or ms but is afraid that may be too big of change for me. I'll have to see.
Anyway, that's off topic. Bottom line for me so far has been air support, blowing THROUGH the horn not at my mouthpiece. But I think thats just basic stuff anyway.
My sound now is better than ever and finally hitting A with consistency in practice.
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Perry dAndrea
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 136
From: San Francisco (formerly Athens, GA)
Posted: 2002-02-20 17:20
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For me, the SC tonguing technique is the prime catalyst for getting the lips set correctly.
pd
[ This Message was edited by: Perry D'Andrea on 2002-08-29 15:20 ]
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trumpetteacher1
Veteran Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 263
From: Garland, Texas
Posted: 2002-02-20 21:54
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Perry,
You said:
"The lips have to SET themselves differently in order for the tonguing to happen through the teeth, and that produces the closest thing I have, to date, to the correct SC embouchure. That's also confirmed by the fact that tonguing this way produces a 100% better, fuller tone, no matter where my tongue sits immediately after the tone begins. The LIP POSITION CAUSED by tonguing through the teeth is what seems to be the trick here."
Congratulations my friend, you just won the prize! Being able to tongue on the lips is a major factor in many student's embouchure development. And the benefits are not just restricted to an "SC" embouchure, or limited to Jerry's teaching (although I got it from him before I read it anywhere else). Several methods advocate learning to tongue as if "spitting out a seed." Some students can do this easily, and some automatically do it without being told. But the ones that CAN'T do it are usually the ones who need it the most.
Are you sure that you don't have my book? Your post was right out of page 17-18.
Jeff Smiley
http://www.trumpetteacher.net
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Perry dAndrea
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 136
From: San Francisco (formerly Athens, GA)
Posted: 2002-02-21 19:19
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"Don't forget- P R A C T I C E ." -Doc Severinsen
[ This Message was edited by: Perry D'Andrea on 2002-08-29 15:21 ]
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Perry dAndrea
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 136
From: San Francisco (formerly Athens, GA)
Posted: 2002-02-26 01:03
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I got ahold of an old brochure Kenneth Bloomquist did with Getzen decades ago that showed his method for practicing open tones with minimal mouthpiece pressure: He let the trumpet sit on a cradle that he made by holding the tips of his thumbs together and the tips of his middle fingers together. This 'oval' made by the fingers and thumbs surrounded the valves, but only the thumbs touched the first valve (the middle fingers were stretched ahead of the valve cluster), and the weight of the trumpet rested on top of the fingers and thumbs via the leadpipe and bellpipe. "Holding" the horn that way, you play an open tone. Make sure your thumbs still touch the first valve, because when they're not, you're kicking in the pressure.
Well, I tried this and could get no higher than a low C.
After more than two months at this and still not being able to play anything above a LOW C without mouthpiece pressure prompted me to get tougher with myself and take a closer look..
New breakthrough experience- I was achieving such a huge sound so early in this change, for one reason: I was doing it wrong.
pd
_________________
"Don't forget- P R A C T I C E ." -Doc Severinsen
[ This Message was edited by: Perry D'Andrea on 2002-08-29 15:23 ]
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Tim80
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 828
From: 20 minutes east of Tampa
Posted: 2002-02-27 09:09
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I do not consider myself a superchops player. However I've noticed that tongueing through the teeth causes me; a recent comeback player, to have less of a tubby sound to their articulation. That can't be a bad thing.
I normally tongue in traditional manner however.
Tim
Plant City,Fl
[ This Message was edited by: Tim80 on 2002-02-27 18:02 ]
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histrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 11, 2001
Posts: 647
From: Mobile, Al
Posted: 2002-02-27 14:18
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Perry,
I know what you mean, like they say "keep your chin up". I am going to drive up to Atlanta next weekend to have a one on one with Lee Adams. Maybe I'll come home with the silver bullet. I'll let you know if I have an aha moment. (That last sentence sounded like someone else I know)
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Rocky Dotson
New Member
Joined: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 3
From: Jackson, TN
Posted: 2002-02-28 15:51
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I've noticed that when playing with the closed embouchure and making no adjustments when the mouthpiece is placed on the lips, at the very least, my first note is almost unrecognizable. Other notes played become more coherent, due I'm sure to changes I make instictively after I start playing. But I also noticed, that when I articulated with the spit-buzz, it opened my aperture a little automatically, making the notes sound much clearer.
My question for the SC experts is this: Is the sound or lack thereof I get when playing with the closed setting and no adjustment when the mouthpiece is placed on the lips, because I have not fully adapted, or because I am overdoing the closed setting? Does the spit-buzz actually open the aperture up enough to get a good sound?
The problem with trying to learn SC the way many of us are, is that we don't really know if we are succeeding, or reverting, if you know what I mean. It's a thin line between not overdoing and not doing.
Perry's situation sounds a lot like mine in this regard, I just wonder if we are both doing it wrong.
By the way, Perry, that was a great suggestion about the way to hold a trumpet when practicing. It works better for me than the other ways I've tried.
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Lex Grantham
Veteran Member
Joined: Nov 13, 2001
Posts: 340
From: East Texas
Posted: 2002-02-28 19:45
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My experience with SuperChops (about 22 months now) has indicated to me that I have to do the following:
1) Forming the embouchure...the top lip needs to come down to where the lip is below the cutting edge of the upper teeth and against the bottom lip...but not pressed hard for lower notes. The pressed sensation will increase as one ascends to higher pitches.
2) By having the top lip down, the player is better able to articulate (with the top of the tongue just up from the tip) against the inside of the upper lip. The tip of the tongue should press (very lightly) against the lower lip...just about where the pink of the outside of the lip becomes the inner lip tissue. See Jeff Smiley's comment in his post above about tonguing on the inside of the lips.
3) Form the embouchure first, and then place the mouthpiece to the lips. It is so easy, also, that once the mouthpiece is placed to the lips, a last-minute change (can be very minimal) occurs, and then the start of the note can be disruptive. Think about what you are doing, but DO NOT overthink it. Just try to be at ease with it. A helpful hint at this point is to breathe through the nose (rather than the mouth) before playing, as that will better keep the formation of the lips in place for accurate commencing of pitches. Once the embouchure becomes more stable, breathing through the mouth can be done.
4) It is good to practice (over and over and over)...form the lips, place the mouthpiece, and start a low C (or other), take the mouthpiece away. It may seem like 10,000 times, but repetition seems to help to build confidence. Be very patient...I am not aware of any other way yet.
5) Work on Low C (and below) for good sounds first; otherwise, going higher may not have good results. As the low C does develop, take each note higher, and assure that it is good before going too much higher. For instance, playing from low C to second-line G and back can build strength. Then try second-line G to third-space C and back. Do this slowly and with determination to get the pitch sounding very full. This is working on small modules (like chapters in a book), and eventually you can play from low F# to high C and back with greater success. The old example of building a skyscraper from the ground up?
6) As one plays higher pitches, the tongue must move more forward toward the mouthpiece for proper results. By keeping the tip of the tongue behind the lower lip, you are provided a point of reference for the tongue to move forward in the mouth when ascending. Also, keep the teeth apart when ascending.
7) Some players will have results sooner than others. It would be unfair to tell someone that the process could develop in so many days, weeks, or whatever. What does occur for many, however, is that the player will begin to notice benefits of better tone, intonation, consistency of sound, and even endurance in a reasonable amount of time. Building proper strength can happen only as fast as Mother Nature will allow.
Always remember that taking on a new embouchure does take time and may not necessarily be a quick fix to what was being used before.
Sincerely,
Lex Grantham
[ This Message was edited by: Lex Grantham on 2002-02-28 19:49 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Lex Grantham on 2002-02-28 23:25 ]
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tptguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2002-03-01 01:26
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Rocky,
<<<Does the spit-buzz actually open the aperture up enough to get a good sound? >>>
No it's actually the other way around. Sound doesn't get better from more hole in the middle. That just puts more unused air into the sound. Sound gets better from more healthy vibrating lip in the mouthpiece.
A properly performed spit buzz both closes the aperture and puts more lip in the mouthpiece. Try this: put the tip of your tongue through your lips then pull it back as in a spit buzz. While doing this, try to keep the lips apart; I think you'll find it can't be done. You can't spit buzz and keep the lips apart. On the contrary, the spit buzz pulls the lips together. Best regards, Kyle |
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