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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:00 pm Post subject: Bigger sounding piccolo trumpets? |
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Just today, and after writing about a recent revelation I had concerning the usefulness of E flat soprano trumpets for tricky parts originally written for the B flat? I then thought that perhaps if a more mellow piccolo trumpet could be made it might facillitate certain tricky parts typically played on the E Flat.
The proposed Pic could have these modifications:
Slightly larger bell.
Larger bore. Say closer to a small bore B Flat.
4th and Fifth valves. To allow at least some kind of access to the lowest tones on the standard B flat.
The last Pic I owned did have a fourth valve. And with perhaps some lip bending and luck a decent Low D (concert middle C pitch) was possible. Theoretically a Low C was also supposed to be possible but it usually required at least one slide extension which felt really awkward when performed on the fly. And I wouldn't have paid fifty cents for the sound below the Concert C.
My reasoning for considering such equipment? Just as switching from the standard B Flat up to my E Flat solved all sorts of most embarrasing technical issues. I thought that a modified Pic could perhaps make the E Flat parts equally easier.
This new thinking all started earlier this spring when I found myself in a dilema on a rather tricky and exposed classical trumpet solo. I faced two choices,
A. Taking 3 to 4 weeks before the concert to lift my overall technical skills up a couple notches. Thereby freeing myself from the formerly difficult intervals in this solo. Or,
B. Simply transposing the thing down a perfect fourth, blowing it on my E Flat and totally acing the thing.
Naturally I chose "B". Granted that "A" is an honorable route. And not a bad idea if only for it's own sake or art. If not just self accomplishment too. However ultimately there would be little difference between each result. And isn't finding better equipment just the smartest form of progress? After all it wasn't like I was using trick computer stuff like Accutune.
It then started me thinking that the same concept could easily be applied to typically E Flat parts. Like Haydn and the Hummel. Frankly Ive never been very pleased with the way I play either one of them. Not even on my E Flat horn. If a more open bore and mellow Pic could be made? Well heck it would make some of those trills and lightning fast articulations duck soup.
I'm not looking for a cop out here. The thing is that a musical result is a musical result. And as my main field (or interest anyway) is commercial/jazz trumpet playing? I just don't want the additional burden of extra practice hours. Not just to raise my whole level of technique up a couple notches. Only for a musical genre I normally don't even need to perform in. I guess you can call me lazy that way however there is also a practical consideration. Which is,
In recent years I've learned to play more efficiently. I changed from previously always trying to increase my range (which is at least pretty good anyway, ie high G) to being able to avoid getting over-trained chops. Another revelation I gained came abt 3 years ago this month. When I carved a fantastic mouthpiece on my home lathe. It is so shallow of a piece but has a fat tone. And with this piece I no longer need to spend two hours daily just to hold down a lead trumpet chair in a big band. I can take a week completely off and still hammer the gig dandy. Over-trained chops had previously killed my joy of the horn for decades.
So the idea of using experimental equipment is right up the same alley. It would require just being a good trumpet player. Not a great one like Doc Severinsen. I think Doc is a huge hero. Ive always been crazy for his work and much admire him and people like him who carry their technical skills to the limit.
However in my own case there came a day when I finally said to myself,
"Enough technique kiddo. Let's finally feel satisfied with what we've got and go out and make some music. Not more endless exercises. That and let's play from the heart".
Ideas welcome. Thanks _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Musicman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2004 Posts: 631 Location: Montevideo, Uruguay
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:03 am Post subject: |
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B&S makes a large bore (.462), four valve piccolo. Have had mine for 17 years and wouldn’t trade it for anything. One of the biggest sounding picccolos I’ve played. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: |
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The Schilke P5-4 has a .450" bore which is larger than what comes on most pics (Selmer, Benge, Getzen, etc.). My Schilke feels more open and plays with a bigger sound than my Selmer. |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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For some reason, I think the 7-4 sounds slightly less 'small' than the 5-4, despite being a shorter wrap. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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Joel Payne Regular Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 Posts: 36 Location: Cincinnati Ohio
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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I have several piccs, including a 4-valve DEG. Takes a trumpet shank, and the tone is highly responsive to mouthpiece choice. I don't use it in the way you're proposing, but it's pretty full-bodied with almost any semi-large or large C-cupped mouthpiece. A 1B works surprisingly well with it too, although the upper register goes a little flat. _________________ Joel Payne |
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trumpet_cop Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 242
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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I have never heard, or played a P5-4 that didn't sound like a toy compared to B&S, Yamaha, the Getzen Custom and others of that style.
As far as OP goes.. why not a G trumpet? Blackburn makes a four valve G piccolo that I'm sure would sound very large. |
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Joel Payne Regular Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 Posts: 36 Location: Cincinnati Ohio
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have several piccs, including a 4-valve DEG. Takes a trumpet shank, and the tone is highly responsive to mouthpiece choice. I don't use it in the way you're proposing, but it's pretty full-bodied with almost any semi-large or large C-cupped mouthpiece. A 1B works surprisingly well with it too, although the upper register goes a little flat. _________________ Joel Payne |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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trompette229 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2016 Posts: 203
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like you're looking for something more than just a different brand of picc like some might be suggesting. The closest thing to what you are looking for (that is in production) would probably be a 4 valve Schilke F/G with the larger G bell.
It has a much different sound than a picc when the largest bell taper is used. The problem with having a picc designed with a huge bell/bore is intonation. A Bb/A picc can only get so big before the scale is way off. The G is just big enough to be able to use the large bell and work but even on that the pitch degrades as you use the larger bells (they have 3 sizes). It's always a tase off. Good luck |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:20 am Post subject: |
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The most common way of dealing with this is to use a normal piccolo and just plonk one's usual Bb mouthpiece in, rather than a specific picc mpc.
Bigger sound, and there you go... issue solved!
cheers
andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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MonkeRules Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 137 Location: Würzburg, Germany
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:11 am Post subject: |
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I would think that Tine Thing Helseth might have had something to do with that.
But my, she sure does sound glorious.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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These are all good responses. Wish I had time to thank everyone personally.
Wow! You guys are among the smartest on the forum. Or put it another way. There's a large concentration of knowledge here. This topic being my first venture here. Congratulations to all of you. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Harry Hilgers Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2015 Posts: 637
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:26 pm Post subject: Deleted |
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Deleted
Last edited by Harry Hilgers on Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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john sop Regular Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 47 Location: Preston, UK
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Another vote for the B&S 3132/2 Piccolo. It has a .465 bore, a warm (for piccolo sound) and decent intonation, which we all know is a ‘pig’ on any piccolo, though on this beautiful instrument it is solid throughout the range. _________________ Music teacher in 11-16 secondary school by day
Soprano Cornet player in a British Open brass band by night |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9345 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: |
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From my experience, a lot of people play picc on a mouthpiece that's too shallow, and aren't familiar enough with the instrument to produce a pleasing tone on it. An experienced picc player with a strong-enough embouchure to use a deeper mouthpiece can make any decent picc sound full. The others can be painful to listen to, though... _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Lawler Bb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Posts: 1140 Location: Milwaukee, WI
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | From my experience, a lot of people play picc on a mouthpiece that's too shallow, and aren't familiar enough with the instrument to produce a pleasing tone on it. An experienced picc player with a strong-enough embouchure to use a deeper mouthpiece can make any decent picc sound full. The others can be painful to listen to, though... |
This x100. Schilke piccs (and others) sound glorious when played with something other than a 14a4a/11ax/etc. Put a 7D or 10-1/2C in the receiver and you get a light, full-bodied sound that is just wonderful. Lead style mouthpieces just don't work well......they may make playing picc easier, but they don't sound right. Sound is king. _________________ Eric Sperry
www.ericsperry.com
www.facebook.com/EricSperryTrumpet/
www.instagram.com/milwaukeetrumpet/ |
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Mac Gollehon Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2014 Posts: 254
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Getzen 4 Valve. |
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Shark01 Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2017 Posts: 283
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Mac Gollehon wrote: | Getzen 4 Valve. |
??? I have one, and it is a small 0.420 bore |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Lawler Bb wrote: | Dale Proctor wrote: | From my experience, a lot of people play picc on a mouthpiece that's too shallow, and aren't familiar enough with the instrument to produce a pleasing tone on it. An experienced picc player with a strong-enough embouchure to use a deeper mouthpiece can make any decent picc sound full. The others can be painful to listen to, though... |
This x100. Schilke piccs (and others) sound glorious when played with something other than a 14a4a/11ax/etc. Put a 7D or 10-1/2C in the receiver and you get a light, full-bodied sound that is just wonderful. Lead style mouthpieces just don't work well......they may make playing picc easier, but they don't sound right. Sound is king. |
I have a pre-Elite Stomvi picc and several different mouthpieces for it. My favorite to use is a Kanstul B7D Woody top with a Warburton 10 cornet shank. It sounds much richer and fuller than my Bach 7E.
I tried a Schilke 11AX. Decided I should only use that if I want to try to beat people to death with sound. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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