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Video: Middle Aged Amatuer Lead Player w/Range but No Style


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INTJ
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Joined: 25 Dec 2002
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Location: Northern Idaho

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gchun01 wrote:
INTJ wrote:
....... I wish this thread has not been moved as I don’t want to have the style of a jazz player. As I continue listening to great lead players I find they play a little more cleanly and precisely than a jazz soloist.


A lot of the great lead players are also great jazz soloists. (Bobby Shew, Chuck Findley, Carl Saunders, Greg Gisbert, Snooky Young, Byron Stripling, etc.) I think it was Byron Stripling that said that lead players should strive to learn the "vocabulary" of jazz from the great jazz players and carry that over to their lead playing. It gives the flow and phrasing needed to make their lead playing swing.

We may be defining "jazz players" differently.


It seems to me that when great jazz soloists play lead, they square it up a tad in order to be more precise and consistent. When they play a solo they pit more grease and personality into their playing.
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LakeTahoeTrpt
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to take you away from the practice room and back into your head here, and suggest that you read the book "Effortless Mastery" by Kenny Werner. It is my hope that the book will, among other things, help you to lighten up on yourself a bit.

My background: I played trumpet full-time for a dozen years or so before the showroom gigs I was playing became fewer and farther between; I was a young guy with a family and needed to be able to support them, so I went back to school and got a graduate degree and became a licensed psychotherapist. I still play, but mainly now just for fun.

Just because you are classified as a certain personality type by a test that you happen to put a lot of faith in does not mean that you are bound to follow a certain paradigm of learning for your entire life. In fact, one of the most useful reasons for taking personality inventories is to help you identify why you have had difficulty in certain areas, so that you can change behaviors associated with a particular personality type.

It is easy to say, "well, I can't learn because I am an XYZ." My challenge to you is to give yourself a break, use the Myers Briggs to help identify why you have constrained your learning in a certain way, and then make the decision to break out of the constraints that you have set for yourself.

For example, I treat people with social anxiety disorders all the time. Know what we work on? Going out and striking up conversations with people. A person with social anxiety might say, "I can't do that; I'm an introvert." In that case, enjoy your social anxiety and don't talk to people. But if a person with social anxiety says, "I am an introvert, but I'm going to go talk to people, because I'm tired of being afraid in social situations," then that person has lifted self-imposed limitations and will likely succeed in his goal.

I have read your responses to posts on this thread. I have listened to your playing. You have a nice tone, a great range that seems pretty effortless, and your articulation is fine. You really aren't that far from where you want to be. It is my humble opinion that your problem lies in the pressure you have placed on yourself to play a certain way, and the self-judgment that arises when you don't meet your goal. When you say, "well, I can't change how I learn because that's just my personality," you are placing a false limitation on your ability. It is important to realize that personality inventories identify traits, and that's all. They don't doom you to eternally display those traits with no hope for change!

Anyway, "Effortless Mastery" addresses all of this and more, and I think it might give you the jump start you are looking for. Good luck, and learn how to be less hard on yourself!

Rick
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INTJ
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Joined: 25 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick,

Though I'd rather discuss the intricacies of lead style, it seems there is much more interest in the psychology. So be it.

As an INTJ I am used to people not understanding how I think. As I have pointed out the MBTI INTJ type fits me very well and when tested I come out very strongly in that type. Most people are not that strong in their type, and for those people MTBI isn't as meaningful.

The letters INTJ really aren't that helpful. The casual MBTI observer will tell you the four categories are: Introverted vs Extroverted (I vs E), Intuition vs Sensing (N vs S), Thinking vs Feeling (T vs F), and Judging vs Perceiving (J vs P). Those words are not accurate and clear descriptors. The worst is I vs E. It really should be internal vs external. I have never remotely been shy, only puzzled as to why people are so stupid in social settings with all these rules of small talk and other such rot. No one in a social setting seemed to want to engage in a deep discussion about the merits of an idea.

Much more illuminating is the function stack. An INTJ's function stack is, in order: Introverted Intuition, External Thinking, Introverted Feeling, External Sensing. My strengths are thinking, analyzing, synthesizing, then taking action and achieving success. INTJs are unique in we aren't just stuck in the theoretical, put the theoretical into practice. To me, an idea or theory is only valid if it works. I went from being a fat nerd to a USAF jet pilot, have been married to my first wife for 31 years, was successful as a hobby level drag racer, and am competing at a solid level in long range shooting. I have also caught steelhead on a flyrod on the North Umpqua. It's thus obvious I know how to achieve success.

My weakness is operating the the realm of emotion. The dysfunction "loop" for an INTJ is to bypass Thinking and to go from Intuition to Feeling. That can lead toward paranoia and the only way to break that is the INSIST on engaging in Thinking. You should never tell an INTJ to do what feels right, you tell them to do what they think is right.

Understanding all that has been a huge benefit to me, especially in the area where I am weak--feelings. I simply do not engage feelings without thinking, and that allows me to tolerate the ridiculousness for human social interaction.......and I have resigned myself that no one REALLY wants to have an in-depth discussion.

It also gives me pause when approaching an endeavor that requires emotional feeling to be successful. I simply cannot "let go" and play with abandon. I need to think it through and engage in an emotionally focused and controlled way so I can play with the appropriate style. I really don't have ANY natural "feel"--I have to learn everything intellectually first. I know that about myself because of MBTI, and it is not a resignation to failure. Recognizing that allows me to build a strategy to deal with it.

The biggest limitation for me is that I am no longer willing to spend more than 2 hours a day devoted to the trumpet. I am a bit skeptical if that is really enough time for me to develop the correct stylistic feel, but we'll see. I am making progress, it's just very slow and stumbling. I haven't even decided just how much style I should have as a lead vs what a soloist does. It's critical a lead play be solid in time, and I'm thinking lead style needs to be a little more square than soloist style for the sake of clarity.

At least I found some motivation. No, it's not for the "love" of trumpet or music or any of that silliness. I will stick with it because it's a hard thing for me to do. When we do things that are hard for us we learn to think in new ways and grow new neural pathways in our brain that can help ward off Alzheimers.
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plp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I can offer that might help is based on my own experience.

I was terrified of failure and would find myself playing one thing in rehearsal, then getting timid on the gig. I would choke up, my tone would get thin, and I would be on the verge of hyperventilation from tension, because I was afraid of anything less than perfection.

We were about to do 'My Girl', and the band leader asked me, are you going to play it like we do in practice, or the way you've done it the past 2 times in performance? Because if you are going to do it that way, we'll skip it, the trumpet part makes the soli.

So I let it rip. I missed notes, played some stuff sharp, but we got the biggest applause afterward we'd ever got before.

Feeling and expression isn't always about perfection, listen to live performances of pretty much anyone, and it is the passion that makes it great.

Try to embrace the imperfections as just part of the gig. Not much else to say, other than listening to you, you get a lot more right than you are giving yourself credit for.

Just relax, hit it hard, and wish it well.
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