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Petey
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tristanfrank wrote:
Keep an eye on CU Boulder. Ryan Gardner was just hired there as their new full time professor, and Justin Bartels is on faculty as well.


Not a fan of either..
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What makes you say that, Petey? Their credentials are impeccable.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why in the world, given the present reality, would anyone ever consider graduate school in music? It was a reckless, irresponsible idea several years ago when I considered it--and the career prospects are 10x worse now than they were back then.

That was 2015, by the way.
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Petey
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
What makes you say that, Petey? Their credentials are impeccable.


Stuff I've heard from folks. Everyone on that level has great credentials.
Aside from credentials it's all about personal experience.
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Petey
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Petey wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
What makes you say that, Petey? Their credentials are impeccable.


Stuff I've heard from folks. Everyone on that level has great credentials.
Aside from credentials it's all about personal experience.


IMO credentials don't mean much.
You have to know their personality, if they are good for you. If you have chemistry etc. That's why I pay attention to what I hear rather than what's on paper..eg a person's credentials are not good enough.


Last edited by Petey on Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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andybharms
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to play in an orchestra, go to Rice or Colburn or Northwestern. Simple as that. Audition as many times as you need to. Don’t go to a school just because it’s the one you can get into. You’re just wasting your time and money.
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slipperyjoe
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read this entire blog as well as Further Reading (scroll down on the right):
https://100rsns.blogspot.com

think about it for a few days and read it again.

I wish I had read something like this before enrolling in graduate school. I would have had a much happier life.

Unless it provides very specific training for a very specific, high-demand career, graduate school is a colossal waste of time. Do some actual research and don't take any advice / career guidance from prospective advisors or program coordinators who are complicit in the scam that is graduate school.
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deleted by dfcoleman

Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: $$$ Reply with quote

dfcoleman wrote:
Regardless of grad school chosen, don’t borrow money to attend. Find another way.

Can that be done, these days?

I lived in a fishing cottage owned by my father-in-law, as well as having borrowed a VW Beetle klunker, had the G.I. Bill, a wife who worked part time, and I had a work-study grant, later a graduate assistanceship.

That was a hell of a mosaic of incomes, and that was at a state school with in-state tuition, but without my father-in-law's help, I don't think I could have finished school debt free.

Now my Doctorate, on the other hand, took ten years to pay off!
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slipperyjoe
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Masters programs don't typically cover tuition or expenses. One strategy is to work where an employer provides tuition assistance and attend school part-time. I earned a free M.S. that way.

'Real' Ph.D. programs cover tuition and provide money for expenses via teaching or research assistantships. Since I lived in an area with a high cost of living (NYC), I also worked a separate part-time teaching job (albeit against university rules) and finished debt-free.

I attended a public university in both cases.

It can be done. That said, I wasted many years of my life and don't recommend this path. Graduate school is almost always a fool's errand.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slipperyjoe wrote:
I wasted many years of my life and don't recommend this path. Graduate school is almost always a fool's errand.

Just to give an alternate view, I have worked as a full-time musician all my adult life. Schooling was a definite advantage. Sorry it didn't work out for you but it's hardly universal.
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slipperyjoe
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reason #55: There are too many PhDs:
https://100rsns.blogspot.com/2011/04/55-there-are-too-many-phds.html
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a matter of what you can't do, but what you can do. Outlook on life.
Apply yourself, be creative, be flexible and, very important, be ready.

I learned to not let yourself say no but to let them say no.

But the largest thing is that I did my Doctoral work for me, not for anyone else. And since it was for me, my rewards were internal.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was a bad idea before the pandemic hit. Now look at things.


For goodness sake, don't go to graduate school in music. Your older, wiser self will be ever-grateful.

But if you choose to pursue it, only Rice or Colburn or Juilliard makes any sense for an aspiring orchestral musician.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slipperyjoe wrote:
Reason #55: There are too many PhDs:
https://100rsns.blogspot.com/2011/04/55-there-are-too-many-phds.html



Too many PhDs, too many professional masters' degrees, too many JDs and auxiliary law degrees, too many of most everything except - maybe - MDs. Which can cost >$100,000/year to attend.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaTrompeta wrote:
It was a bad idea before the pandemic hit. Now look at things.

For goodness sake, don't go to graduate school in music. Your older, wiser self will be ever-grateful.

But if you choose to pursue it, only Rice or Colburn or Juilliard makes any sense for an aspiring orchestral musician.


I know someone working on his 3rd graduate performance degree - who will likely pursue a career other than performance as he has a unique skill set and talent in a related, but not performing or teaching, field. That does not mean he is wasting his time though. Not only does it afford him the chance to become a better musician and technician, and exposure to performance opportunities that one has in school that, absent a performing career, do not happen in life after that, but it gives him the opportunity to expand his knowledge and critical thinking through other coursework and research. He is growing as a person, not just filling a check-box. Graduate school just for the piece of paper may not be worthwhile, but that does not mean the endeavor if utilized as the opportunity it truly is, should be considered likewise.

Its all in what you do with it.

And as far as schools for trumpet performance historically: you have to include Eastman and UNT.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
slipperyjoe wrote:
Reason #55: There are too many PhDs:
https://100rsns.blogspot.com/2011/04/55-there-are-too-many-phds.html



Too many PhDs, too many professional masters' degrees, too many JDs and auxiliary law degrees, too many of most everything except - maybe - MDs. Which can cost >$100,000/year to attend.

And you base that on what?
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
slipperyjoe wrote:
Reason #55: There are too many PhDs:
https://100rsns.blogspot.com/2011/04/55-there-are-too-many-phds.html



Too many PhDs, too many professional masters' degrees, too many JDs and auxiliary law degrees, too many of most everything except - maybe - MDs. Which can cost >$100,000/year to attend.

And you base that on what?


I don't want to derail the thread, but in brief:

I have (at least one) of those degrees, so I know that/those market(s) intimately from personal experience. As for the rest, there's a growing academic and general audience literature on the job woes of all of those cohorts, as well as some full-length books. Some issues started with the Great Recession, others have been around for at least the last generation.
I'd recommend, among others,

- The Graduate School Mess by Leonard Cassuto
- Failing Law Schools by Brian Tamanaha
- The Adjunct Underclass by Herb Childress

In addition to dozens of academic articles on SSRN, NBER, and other repositories, and general interest pieces in the nation's largest-circulation newspapers and magazines. For instance, there are no books on the overproduction of certain types of STEM PhDs so far as I am aware, but many articles on that phenomenon.

On the bright side, it's given me the time to get back into the wondrous world of the trumpet.

Tl;dr: LaTrompeta's observation that "only Rice or Colburn or Juilliard makes any sense" has corollaries in just about every corner and area of graduate education.
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astadler
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2¢: I think the real question that should be asked instead of saying "grad school is useless" or "there are too many [insert degree here]" is why do you want to go to grad school? Are you going simply to increase your chances of getting a particular job, or are you going in pursuit of knowledge?

There are so many people who get a DMA or whatever degree because "that's the next step" rather than because they truly want to study music and broaden their horizons. In my experience, many of those tend to be the people who struggle with their music theory/musicology academics, but think that because they play their instrument "real good" that entitles them to a doctorate so they can go teach. I am a recent DMA grad, and I hope to one day get a job in higher ed, but that's not the sole reason I got the degree, and not the only thing I can do with the skills and knowledge I gained from my studies. Going to grad school just so that you can be qualified to teach in academia is a cycle that's not going to help anyone, but that doesn't mean that grad school is useless.
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rmch
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any teacher you want to study with? If so, go to the school they teach at. Is there any particular skill/repertoire/method you want to learn more about? Go study where that is taught. Your teacher can have a big impact on your experience, so make sure you consider them in the equation: does the teacher teach the things you need to learn/are interested in learning? Do you have/think you will be able to have a good working rapport with that teacher?
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