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Graduate School Options


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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has gone on a little long and just about everything said, so please indulge me a little side trip. I've personally experienced an escalation in the levels of acquired education and the requirements for academic jobs.

I can trace one part of this back to the Viet Nam War. If you stayed in school and kept your grades up, you were draft exempt. When I went into the service the war was ramping up and coincidental with that, more students were staying in school as long as they could. Yes, gaining more knowledge was part of that but I believe avoiding the potential of going to Viet Nam can't be underestimated.

When I went into the service, you could get a university job almost anywhere with a Master Degree. When I came out four years later that was almost impossible, so many people getting Doctorates. The "new norm" had been established.

I lived in Europe 20 years and, to the best of my knowledge, there are no Doctorates in music, save musicology and theory. Everything else, you got a good, solid basic training and then went out in the world to get more "hands on" knowledge and skill. In some cases, people could return to a conservatory for specific training.

This is a long way of saying that, in the U.S., you need a Doctorate to get your average academic job just because that's the way it is. But, as Europe and Far Eastern countries have shown, the certification is not the most important thing, what you do is.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that music school enriches one's life. I, too, have a trumpet performance degree. I can't say it "harmed" me in terms of my current career, either.

I do think, also, on the practicality of degrees. To obtain 3 degrees that are not in a field one will be pursuing as a career does not make much sense to me, unless one is independently wealthy. Lots of money and time goes into these things, and opportunity loss is a big consideration as well.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You got the money thing right. I finished both my BM and MM degrees debt-free. It took me ten years to pay off my Doctorate.
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Mary Thompson
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a really useful thread, although it's old enough. Currently, I try to make my choice, and it's hard. I think that after analyzing all replies I can make it.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I can trace one part of this back to the Viet Nam War. If you stayed in school and kept your grades up, you were draft exempt. When I went into the service the war was ramping up and coincidental with that, more students were staying in school as long as they could. Yes, gaining more knowledge was part of that but I believe avoiding the potential of going to Viet Nam can't be underestimated.

When I went into the service, you could get a university job almost anywhere with a Master Degree. When I came out four years later that was almost impossible, so many people getting Doctorates. The "new norm" had been established.


A bit of this can be explained numerically. From the data tables 322.10, 323.10, and 324.10 at https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/current_tables.asp:

In the 1975-76 academic year, the time Vietnam was winding down, the United States produced

- 925,746 recipients of bachelor's degrees
- 317,477 recipients of master's degrees, and
- 91,007 recipients of doctoral degrees

In 2017-18, the most recent year we have data, the United States produced

- 1,980,644 recipients of bachelor's degrees
- 820,102 recipients of master's degrees, and
- 184,074 recipients of doctoral degrees

It's a massive increase. We produce more advanced degrees per year now than we did bachelor's degrees in the 1970s and 1980s. And job market demand, for the most part, has not kept up. Students end up mixing and matching advanced degrees to stand out from the growing crowds of people with advanced degrees. Pair that business degree with a master's in taxation to differentiate yourself from the other ~200,000 MBAs made that year, or tie that JD with an advanced degree in STEM to get a job as a patent lawyer, or tie that MD with a MPH or MPP to work on health care issues, or get a PhD in addition to a JD to become a law professor. Some of those paths require over a decade in higher education. But I digress.

The data does not directly say how many music majors there are, but the category "Visual and performing arts" roughly tripled its number of graduates between 1975-76 and 2017-18 in all three degree levels: 30,394 up to 88,582 for bachelor's degrees, 6,675 to 17,686 for master's degrees, and 621 to 1,759 for doctoral degrees. I cannot imagine that the number of job openings for professional musicians has kept pace.
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arthurtwoshedsjackson
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The U.S. population is roughly 50% higher than the mid-70s, so that has to be factored in, but they are still large increases, percentage-wise.

Worth reading:
https://100rsns.blogspot.com/?m=1
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also add that the Great Recession that started in 2008 has lead to an increase in the number of those with degrees. Many retirement age people were forced to stay in their jobs. Recent graduates were unable to find work thus staying in school working on advanced degrees and accumulating debt.

I have often thought that music should be treated more like a trade school program instead of a liberal arts academic degree. I can honestly say that I use zero percent of the animal biology class I was forced to take during my undergrad and I left school with huge gaps in my knowledge/skill base due to not having time in the degree program to learn those things.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt- that's what conservatories are for.
Others want to take advantage of a well-rounded education.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, just to say that different paths are available.
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Petey
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Graduate School Options Reply with quote

jollypear wrote:
I'm quickly approaching my final year of my undergrad performance degree, auditions are looming, and I still don't know the right places to set my sights for my MM.

I can put together some of the big name schools easily enough (and have decided that my pipe dream school is Rice), but to be comfortable, I would like to apply to some schools the next tier down, like some other state schools. I'm currently based in the Midwest, but a flight or two would be manageable for me. My current trumpet professor has suggested I look into Ball State, and I think Stephen Campbell is a buddy of his.

Who are some of the good names in smaller/underrated schools like these? I potentially could have a DMA in my future so could have another school later as well.


This post is dated but I'll reply anyway.

Many great options out there and some not so great..it all depending on how big of a school you're looking for..location..and attitude of the teachers in the Studio.

I've known many young players who have studied in many schools and loved it..
U Mich
Mich State
U Maryland
Baylor
U New Mexico
Temple
State U at Montclair NJ
Rowan U
Indiana
USC
U Iowa


I've also heard negatives..

Northwestern
C U Boulder
U Northern Texas
Hart
U Mass Amherst
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder what the perspective was of those opinions. In other words, if one had never gone to another school, what is their perspective based on? Or, if a student transferred from Bum**** Jr. College to North Texas and got buried, might that say more about the student than the school? Perspective.
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Petey
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scarface wrote:
tristanfrank wrote:
Keep an eye on CU Boulder. Ryan Gardner was just hired there as their new full time professor, and Justin Bartels is on faculty as well.


I recently watched his masterclass on YouTube. Phenomenal teacher, as are the other choices.


Hate to toss a cold bucket of water on this..but he is problematic at best.
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Summer Breeze
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CU Boulder is getting bad vibes lately...I was advised to stay away.
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Summer Breeze
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Petey wrote:
scarface wrote:
tristanfrank wrote:
Keep an eye on CU Boulder. Ryan Gardner was just hired there as their new full time professor, and Justin Bartels is on faculty as well.


I recently watched his masterclass on YouTube. Phenomenal teacher, as are the other choices.


Hate to toss a cold bucket of water on this..but he is problematic at best.


Yes I have been given advice to stay far away...bad scene.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Summer Breeze wrote:
Petey wrote:
scarface wrote:
tristanfrank wrote:
Keep an eye on CU Boulder. Ryan Gardner was just hired there as their new full time professor, and Justin Bartels is on faculty as well.


I recently watched his masterclass on YouTube. Phenomenal teacher, as are the other choices.


Hate to toss a cold bucket of water on this..but he is problematic at best.


Yes I have been given advice to stay far away...bad scene.


I realize this thread is from like 2020, but: Guys, either back this up with cold-hard facts or get out of here with this garbage. At least tell a hearsay story. But don't just post an obfuscated and cringey teen facebook status.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@abontrumpet - when I first got to the Pentagon in AF Public Affairs, one of the first things told me (and, thankfully, not universal) was:

"You don't understand, Captain. Facts don't apply". (gulp)
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