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Horns with a sizzling/burning sound for rock & soul band


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DrKristensen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Horns with a sizzling/burning sound for rock & soul band Reply with quote

Hello everyone – a question from Oslo, Norway!

I have been following TH for years, the value of hanging around here is just unbelievable. I just recently formally signed up, and I look forward to taking part in some of the discussions. Some background: I’m an amateur comeback player - after 14 years without a band (busy travel schedule), last year I joined a rock & soul band with a three-piece horn section (trumpet, tenor sax and trombone). It’s A LOT of fun!

Current horns:

• King Legend 2070 ML-SP (0.459” - from 2000). Huge, fat sound and a good player, but drains quite a bit of energy and doesn’t really start to sizzle until I really step on it and go full throttle.
• Yamaha 6330BS – Till Brönner signature model (from 2014, my current main axe). This model has the same leadpipe as 6310z (so quite tight), it’s a ML bore horn (0.459” as well) with a medium bell that is quite lightweight (999g / 35.2oz). I get a nice, commercial sound out of it and both range and endurance are a bit better than on the King. I guess setup-wise (tight leadpipe, ML bore, lightweight, medium, focused bell) it’s perhaps a bit like a Benge 2X or a Schilke B2 (? – my guess). To give you an idea of the bell, a Jo-Ral harmon/bubble mute doesn’t really seat properly (only the part of the cork close to the edge touches the bell, without making adjustments). The original Harmon brand wah-wah fits better, but also this has less contact than the King (or a UMI Benge pocket trumpet I also have).

On recordings, I think that our horn section sounds best with a punchy sound. I can definitely get that sound on my Yamaha – but I’m looking for something that gets that edgy sound at lower volumes. We are miked up, so I’d like a bright, brilliant sound with a bit of burn to it at relatively low volumes (rock & soul band “low volumes”, not “chamber music low volumes”). I can get quite a dark, rich sound with a regular mouthpiece, so I’m not overly worried about getting a horn that cannot be used for everything. I’m not doing any classical gigs. And I bring a flugelhorn to gigs, so that covers ballads etc. And I don’t plan on selling my two other horns either, so if I need a darker, more flexible sound any of my two existing horns will do just fine.

To sum it up, I guess you can say that I want that hot, sizzling sound with some burn to it at 65-70% volume rather than 80% (the Yamaha) or 90% (the King) to save some energy for the encores at the end of a long 3-set gig 😊 I don’t want more volume – I just want it to SOUND like I’m pushing the horn without too much effort. Then the sound engineer can take care of the rest.

So, I have been looking at alternatives - primarily lightweight, commercial or medium bore horns. Since we’re miked up, I think maybe a smaller, directional bell would be preferable to a larger bell that spreads the sound more, but I’m not sure.
Good feedback from the bell is a plus, but we normally use Soundback “monitors” so it’s not critical.

Some of the horns I’ve been looking at (online, except where indicated) – in order of interest:

1. Charley Davis West Coast 1s-7 – same bell as the 1s-2 (which I just love the sound of – so many of my favourite recordings have players with Calicchios!), similar sound I believe – but the added resistance would come in handy I think. I’d really like to try this horn but here in Norway that’s unfortunately not an option. I did play a Hollywood made Calicchio 1s-2 in Oakland in 2000, and it was GREAT but I had just bought the King and I also could not afford it, as I was still a student.
2. Schilke B4 – the specs sounds very attractive. Does anyone have any views on this, given what I’m after? I have played a B5, a B1 and some of the large bore Schilkes and they are all fantastic instruments – but I have unfortunately not played any of their medium bore horns.
3. Schilke B6 – see above. How does this compare to the B4?
4. Callet Sima (are those still being made)? – I have never seen one, but the specs seem interesting, and I also believe I would like the underslung 3rd valve ring (I sometimes use a pistol grip).
5. Schilke S42 – see above.
6. Burbank 3* ML – have not tried this one, but I also dig the sound of old Benges. Is it correct that the Burbanks are a little lighter in weight than the Kanstul Chicagos?
7. Kanstul Chicago 1000 – this one I tried many years ago and I liked it, but it sounded brighter than my desired sound at the time (hence I got the King). I don’t remember how the blow compares to the other horns I have tried though, and I don’t know how it would compare to the Yamaha I currently have.
8. Burbank 2* ML (if this could be made - would combining a Burbank 2* bell from the Burbank 2* MLP with the body of a Burbank 3* ML equal an old Benge 2X, or is the leadpipe different)?
9. Yamaha 6310z – have tried it many years ago, but didn’t love it. The sound was a bit “sterile” but I’m not sure if this was due to the fact that I was the smallest bore trumpet I had tried back then, and I tried playing it like a quite heavy ML bore horn).
10. Yamaha 8310z – similar experience, clean and nice, compact sound – but my current Yamaha has both a smaller leadpipe (I believe, since it’s the same as the 6310z) and a smaller bell, so I’m not sure it really gives more of what I want (I haven’t been able to try it for more than a few minutes).
11. Charley Davis West Coast 1s-2 – I just love the sound of the Calicchio 1s-2 and from what I read I see that this is about as close as you get to the real thing (see the comment regarding the 1s-7 above), but I believe it’s perhaps a bit too open for me.
12. Jupiter XO Ingram 1600i – I have tried it (in lacquer), and it’s a good horn but it was surprisingly heavy and not easier to get a brilliant sound than my current Yamaha, I believe.
13. Kanstul 1501 – would this be an accurate replica of the Calicchio 1s-7? How does it differ from a Calicchio 1s-7 or a Charley Davis West Coast 1s-7?
14. Kanstul 1502 – would this be an accurate replica of the Calicchio 1s-2? How does it differ from a Calicchio 1s-2 or a Charley Davis West Coast 1s-2?
15. Calicchio 1s-7 or Calicchio 1s-2. Buying a second hand horn is always an option, however I’ve heard that at least some of them are less consistent than some of the other horns on the list.

Except for the Schilkes, the Yamahas, the Jupiter (and the old Calicchios), I guess they’re all at least partially manufactured by Kanstul. This is not a bad thing, I understand!

Now; after this excessively long post (sorry!), my question to my fellow trumpeters here on TH is the following:
I want an efficient blow and a brilliant tone with plenty of “burn” to it, even when not playing very loud. Intonation and an easy high register are more important than slotting, however, slotting is certainly a plus.
Which of the trumpets on the list above do you think would be best suited for this? ANY views – pros and cons for any of the horns listed above (or others, if I missed some!) are highly appreciated!

Sorry again for such a long post – thanks for reading! I hope to hear from some of you.
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Last edited by DrKristensen on Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen Eterna Severinsen. Of course the mouthpiece is a large factor as well.

Link takes you to a part of a track where Doc does some sizzling with his.


https://youtu.be/fn70ehqENYw?t=3m42s


More sizzle.


Link

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khedger
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always got really good results with a Benge 3x+ (medium large plus). I think Kanstul and Burbank make analogous models.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

understand the seafood is beyond belief in norway. i am jealous having seen pictures of that huge crab you have, nicely plated.
you need a friend or two. the 1s2, 1s7 would be great among others. used is fine with them. your friends are the shops that take in used horns, maybe hub van laar, maybe thomann, first thing find out where the best places to get a used trumpet are in europe. eclipse in england usually has them. get on the phone or computer and contact them. your request is very mainstream and any knowledgeable trumpet person will know right away what to give you. there are plenty of new horns that will work as well.
for that matter your yamaha may get the sound with a mouthpiece change. ?
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm about to pull the trigger on a new Bach 72* with an LT body. That's about the brightest penny in the jar. Time tested brand, classic sound, made for what you're looking for.

ed
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Horns that sizzle Reply with quote

Hello DrK,
The medium bore Schilke horns you mentioned, might play a little tight for what you do. Unless you were already acclimated to the smaller bore, I would opt for the B2 or the newer S33HD. The Calicchio 1S9 is a great model. I have experimented with the 2 and 7 leadpipes, but I like the 9 better. If you talk Benge, you might look for a LA CG. They rock.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed that mouthpiece, trumpet and concept have to work together for the best results...

Add relative new comer to your list, Bach Commercial LT1901B

Loving mine. The only downside I've found, is with the size and shape of the bell-it's a touch larger and enough different in shape that some mutes (cup mutes especially) that fit well on my 37 and other trumpets don't fit quite right on the Commercial. Fortunately, I have a second set that I've adjusted to my liking.
I've found a medium to medium shallow mouthpiece suits my needs just right with this instrument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyTIj3Rt38M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LcwNEE0Ho4
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J-Walk
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love my Calicchio 1S7. I have never replicated the type of sizzle, projection and clarity I can achieve on it at moderate volumes with other ML bore horns. I played a Scodwell trumpet a few months ago that was also a great commercial horn. If I wasn’t so satisfied with my 1S7, I’d strongly consider the Scodwell.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mouthpiece and sound concept when put to use can make just about any horn sound however you want.

I have a Bach 37 with heavy caps and a rounded main tuning slide. I have a range of mouthpieces from a Bach 1-1/2B, all the way up to an extra shallow custom cup by Jim New. With these and the right approach, I can make it sound "classical" or I can make it burn. Just depends on what I want to do with it.

A lot can be said about having the aural concept of what you're trying to play. I can pop in a 1-1/2C and get it to sizzle. It just takes less work with more specialized mouthpieces.
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: Horns with a sizzling/burning sound for rock & soul Reply with quote

DrKristensen wrote:



To sum it up, I guess you can say that I want that hot, sizzling sound with some burn to it at 65-70% volume rather than 80% (the Yamaha) or 90% (the King) to save some energy for the encores at the end of a long 3-set gig 😊 I don’t want more volume – I just want it to SOUND like I’m pushing the horn without too much effort. Then the sound engineer can take care of the rest.



To me it sounds that you are looking for an Getzen 900 Eterna

http://www.getzen.com/trumpet/eterna/900s.shtml
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: Horns with a sizzling/burning sound for rock & soul Reply with quote

DrKristensen wrote:
Hello everyone – a question from Oslo, Norway!

I have been following TH for years, the value of hanging around here is just unbelievable. I just recently formally signed up, and I look forward to taking part in some of the discussions. Some background: I’m an amateur comeback player - after 14 years without a band (busy travel schedule), last year I joined a rock & soul band with a three-piece horn section (trumpet, tenor sax and trombone). It’s A LOT of fun!

Current horns:

• King Legend 2070 ML-SP (0.459” - from 2000). Huge, fat sound and a good player, but drains quite a bit of energy and doesn’t really start to sizzle until I really step on it and go full throttle.
• Yamaha 6330BS – Till Brönner signature model (from 2014, my current main axe). This model has the same leadpipe as 6310z (so quite tight), it’s a ML bore horn (0.459” as well) with a medium bell that is quite lightweight (999g / 35.2oz). I get a nice, commercial sound out of it and both range and endurance are a bit better than on the King. I guess setup-wise (tight leadpipe, ML bore, lightweight, medium, focused bell) it’s perhaps a bit like a Benge 2X or a Schilke B2 (? – my guess). To give you an idea of the bell, a Jo-Ral harmon/bubble mute doesn’t really seat properly (only the part of the cork close to the edge touches the bell, without making adjustments). The original Harmon brand wah-wah fits better, but also this has less contact than the King (or a UMI Benge pocket trumpet I also have).

On recordings, I think that our horn section sounds best with a punchy sound. I can definitely get that sound on my Yamaha – but I’m looking for something that gets that edgy sound at lower volumes. We are miked up, so I’d like a bright, brilliant sound with a bit of burn to it at relatively low volumes (rock & soul band “low volumes”, not “chamber music low volumes”). I can get quite a dark, rich sound with a regular mouthpiece, so I’m not overly worried about getting a horn that cannot be used for everything. I’m not doing any classical gigs. And I bring a flugelhorn to gigs, so that covers ballads etc. And I don’t plan on selling my two other horns either, so if I need a darker, more flexible sound any of my two existing horns will do just fine.

To sum it up, I guess you can say that I want that hot, sizzling sound with some burn to it at 65-70% volume rather than 80% (the Yamaha) or 90% (the King) to save some energy for the encores at the end of a long 3-set gig 😊 I don’t want more volume – I just want it to SOUND like I’m pushing the horn without too much effort. Then the sound engineer can take care of the rest.

So, I have been looking at alternatives - primarily lightweight, commercial or medium bore horns. Since we’re miked up, I think maybe a smaller, directional bell would be preferable to a larger bell that spreads the sound more, but I’m not sure.
Good feedback from the bell is a plus, but we normally use Soundback “monitors” so it’s not critical.

Some of the horns I’ve been looking at (online, except where indicated) – in order in interest:

1. Charley Davis West Coast 1s-7 – same bell as the 1s-2 (which I just love the sound of – so many of my favourite recordings have players with Calicchios!), similar sound I believe – but the added resistance would come in handy I think. I’d really like to try this horn but here in Norway that’s unfortunately not an option. I did play a Hollywood made Calicchio 1s-2 in Oakland in 2000, and it was GREAT but I had just bought the King and I also could not afford it, as I was still a student.
2. Schilke B4 – the specs sounds very attractive. Does anyone have any views on this, given what I’m after? I have played a B5, a B1 and some of the large bore Schilkes and they are all fantastic instruments – but I have unfortunately not played any of their medium bore horns.
3. Schilke B6 – see above. How does this compare to the B4?
4. Callet Sima (are those still being made)? – I have never seen one, but the specs seem interesting, and I also believe I would like the underslung 3rd valve ring (I sometimes use a pistol grip).
5. Schilke S42 – see above.
6. Burbank 3* ML – have not tried this one, but I also dig the sound of old Benges. Is it correct that the Burbanks are a little lighter in weight than the Kanstul Chicagos?
7. Kanstul Chicago 1000 – this one I tried many years ago and I liked it, but it sounded brighter than my desired sound at the time (hence I got the King). I don’t remember how the blow compares to the other horns I have tried though, and I don’t know how it would compare to the Yamaha I currently have.
8. Burbank 2* ML (if this could be made - would combining a Burbank 2* bell from the Burbank 2* MLP with the body of a Burbank 3* ML equal an old Benge 2X, or is the leadpipe different)?
9. Yamaha 6310z – have tried it many years ago, but didn’t love it. The sound was a bit “sterile” but I’m not sure if this was due to the fact that I was the smallest bore trumpet I had tried back then, and I tried playing it like a quite heavy ML bore horn).
10. Yamaha 8310z – similar experience, clean and nice, compact sound – but my current Yamaha has both a smaller leadpipe (I believe, since it’s the same as the 6310z) and a smaller bell, so I’m not sure it really gives more of what I want (I haven’t been able to try it for more than a few minutes).
11. Charley Davis West Coast 1s-2 – I just love the sound of the Calicchio 1s-2 and from what I read I see that this is about as close as you get to the real thing (see the comment regarding the 1s-7 above), but I believe it’s perhaps a bit too open for me.
12. Jupiter XO Ingram 1600i – I have tried it (in lacquer), and it’s a good horn but it was surprisingly heavy and not easier to get a brilliant sound than my current Yamaha, I believe.
13. Kanstul 1501 – would this be an accurate replica of the Calicchio 1s-7? How does it differ from a Calicchio 1s-7 or a Charley Davis West Coast 1s-7?
14. Kanstul 1502 – would this be an accurate replica of the Calicchio 1s-2? How does it differ from a Calicchio 1s-2 or a Charley Davis West Coast 1s-2?
15. Calicchio 1s-7 or Calicchio 1s-2. Buying a second hand horn is always an option, however I’ve heard that at least some of them are less consistent than some of the other horns on the list.

Except for the Schilkes, the Yamahas, the Jupiter (and the old Calicchios), I guess they’re all at least partially manufactured by Kanstul. This is not a bad thing, I understand!

Now; after this excessively long post (sorry!), my question to my fellow trumpeters here o TH is the following:
I want an efficient blow and a brilliant tone with plenty of “burn” to it, even when not playing very loud. Intonation and an easy high register are more important than slotting, however, slotting is certainly a plus.
Which of the trumpets on the list above do you think would be best suited for this? ANY views – pros and cons for any of the horns listed above (or others, if I missed some!) are highly appreciated!

Sorry again for such a long post – thanks for reading! I hope to hear from some of you.



Hello scandinavian neighbour! Your request seems to match my mint condition Bach LT190S 1B Commercial! The combination of me and this horn I have had the grace to get many views of here on this wonderful forum. Like you I also possess a main axe, King Super 20 with the pros and cons you ascribe to your King, but wanted a modern horn so I bought this Bach.
Wonderful horn but sadly to say not in front off my lips (I´m too damaged having played cornet the last 60 years so the feedback from the Bach makes my "receptors" go bananas). But I´ve heard it being played upon by a pro friend and wow what a sound!
Guess this sounds as an invitation to buy - maybe - but I would certainly recommend you to test one - you never know before you actually play! There are some youtube sessions such as: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBsgwR667WM&spfreload=5
I´ve tested some of the horns you mention e.g. the Ingram Jupiter and I share your views. Sounded "tinny".
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maynard-46
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:04 am    Post subject: Horns with a sizzling/burning sound for rock & soul band Reply with quote

Adams A5...without a doubt!!! Lightest horn I've ever held and it spits out pure fire!!!

Butch
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:23 am    Post subject: which trumpet is better Reply with quote

I have played the Calicchio 1S7 since 1983,after going to Anaheim, California and was fitted that the old house. It is a great trumpet, however, I became interested in a Sonare 9BYS from Germany which has a Blackburn Stirling silver lead pipe and cryogenic treated one piece bell. I purchased it on a whim , found that the Sonare trumpet really sizzles and has a lot of color in the sound. It is a little heavier but the sound is fantastic. I tried more recently
a Shilke trumpet HD32 that was lighter, slightly better slotting and beautiful tone but couldn't justify the price for the difference.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't played all of the horns on your list, but of the ones I have, here is a list of those that would seem to meet your requirements, along with a few not on your list.

Getzen 900 Eterna Classic

Getzen 3001 Artist

Charley Davis West Coast 1S7 (haven’t played the 1S2)

Bach LT1901B Commercial

Benge 2X MLP (haven’t played a 2X ML)

Regarding the Benge 3X MLP and similar horns by Kanstul (1000/1001) and Burbank (made by Kanstul): I think they are fantastic horns, but a bit mellower in the middle/lower register than you seem to be looking for. I'd say the same thing about the Kanstul 1600 and Shires Destino III.

Good luck!
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DrKristensen
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all, thank you so much for great input - this was really overwhelming (in a very good sense) I'm learning a lot about the horns I already had on my list here - and picking up some great tips regarding some other horns as well. Thank you to all for sharing your experiences and views! What a community!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, given the length of your post that started this thread you are clearly not one of those who just make 5 posts so they can use the Marketplace!

If you are interested in used horns you should consider the Benge CG model and the Selmer CG model (both designed by Claude Gordon). Very bright playing horns and very easy upper registers on them (back when I was playing in Pit Orchestras full time when I would switch between either of them and another typical horn I'd tend to undershoot high notes by a step or so at first, and likewise, when I went back on either of these horns after playing a few shows on a different trumpet, I'd tend to overshoot high notes by a step or so - they really do make the upper range easier).

If you want a new trumpet I highly recommend the Burbank 6XCG which is basically a copy of the two no-longer-built horns I mentioned. It looks just like a .468" Benge CG but has the .470" bore of the Selmer CG trumpet that Claude preferred. All three of these very lightweight horns would play brighter than the Burbank 3X you mentioned in your original post as well as most of the other listed horns.

Here's more info on the Burbank 6XCG:

http://www.horntrader.com/burbank-trumpets/151-burbank-6-claude-gordon-470464-wcg-leadpipe-extra-light-weight-bell.html

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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DrKristensen
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! I have looked at the Burbank & Kanstul CG models and the sound is indeed very attractive. I am however a bit concerned that they require a bit too much air to fill up - despite the choked bell. The large bore horns I have tried in the past have made my endurance suffer, hence is why I initially ranked the 1s-7 before or over the 1s-2 and listed the 2X/3X instead of the CG model(s).

I guess it is possible to add some resistance by finding a mouthpiece with an even smaller drill size or backbore (I currently mostly use a Yamaha 7A4, which I find extremely comfortable and can get a good sound on - with the matching Yamaha 7F4 flugel mouthpiece).

Also, I'm curious about the extra thin bell - and how this works in a live setting. I'm usually very careful when putting my trumpet down on a stand and I do use a soft wind screen on my SM57 mic, but I do need to use a stand on stage (we often play on stages that are quite small, given that we are 10 guys on stage).
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrKristensen wrote:
Thanks! I have looked at the Burbank & Kanstul CG models and the sound is indeed very attractive. I am however a bit concerned that they require a bit too much air to fill up - despite the choked bell. The large bore horns I have tried in the past have made my endurance suffer, hence is why I initially ranked the 1s-7 before or over the 1s-2 and listed the 2X/3X instead of the CG model(s).

I guess it is possible to add some resistance by finding a mouthpiece with an even smaller drill size or backbore (I currently mostly use a Yamaha 7A4, which I find extremely comfortable and can get a good sound on - with the matching Yamaha 7F4 flugel mouthpiece).

Also, I'm curious about the extra thin bell - and how this works in a live setting. I'm usually very careful when putting my trumpet down on a stand and I do use a soft wind screen on my SM57 mic, but I do need to use a stand on stage (we often play on stages that are quite small, given that we are 10 guys on stage).


I had a go on my instructors Selmer CG. I found it easier to play than my Bach Strad. I frequently hear comments to the effect that large bore horns require more effort to play. Maybe some are, but that hasn't been my experience. I've tried three large bore horns, my Schilke HC1, the Selmer CG and a Wild Thing. I didn't find any of these difficult to play. Though, I think that my HC1 would be strenuous for lead playing, I found the Wild Thing to be an unusually easy horn to play. YMMV.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some have suggested the Getzen 900 Eterna Classic - it's supposed to be a replica of the Eterna Severinsen. I currently have a leadpipe on my Severinsen that's made for the current model - only because the original had red rot issues.

You can pick up a nice condition Eterna Severinsen on Ebay for a lot less than what the current models go for, and you get Doc's name on it.

Be advised there were Getzen Eternas that were made after Doc left that are NOT the same as the Severinsen model. Not sure what the years were.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIRkaacvPv4
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