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Horns with a sizzling/burning sound for rock & soul band


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B_Starry
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having owned and played many hours on most of the horns you listed in your original post, I would recommend the Schilke B4 first, if you want a M bore, and a Bach 43* second, if you prefer the Ml bore.
The Schilke B6 is a wonderful horn, if you need color in addition to brilliance, and want a larger feel to the blow.
Hth,
Brian
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Horns with a sizzling/burning sound for rock & soul Reply with quote

Manuel de los Campos wrote:
DrKristensen wrote:



To sum it up, I guess you can say that I want that hot, sizzling sound with some burn to it at 65-70% volume rather than 80% (the Yamaha) or 90% (the King) to save some energy for the encores at the end of a long 3-set gig 😊 I don’t want more volume – I just want it to SOUND like I’m pushing the horn without too much effort. Then the sound engineer can take care of the rest.



To me it sounds that you are looking for an Getzen 900 Eterna

http://www.getzen.com/trumpet/eterna/900s.shtml


This is exactly what the Callet Superchops was designed to do. Hard to find anything that can do it better. I love Getzen! The Eterna may do it, but if so it certainly does it differently, and with more resistance.

Getzen 907 Proteus is a sweet horn, as is Schilke i32
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although it sounds like your current horn is quite similar, I love my 8310z for these kinds of situations. It gets an enormous variety of sound colors depending on how you play it, but if you want to get loud and bury a band with sizzle, this is the axe I would pick up to do it with the least effort.

I have found that the horn mics up extremely well. If I want more "pop" in the sound, I mic it straight on, while if I want smoother/softer attacks, I put the mic at about a 20 degree angle offset.

The Adams A5 is a magnificent instrument - I do plan on buying one some day - and while I thought it was slightly less versatile than my 8310z, it certainly is a sizzle machine in the super-lightweight .40 gauge. As you're in Europe, maybe you could find one of those to give it a spin?

Good luck!
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DrKristensen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for helping out, fellow trumpeters - I'm now better informed than I feel I have ever been (with a margin). I hadn't really considered the CG models, the Getzens, the Callets (other than the Sima) and the Adams A5 but the recordings definitely showcase the sizzle and burn I'm after. I'll give my list another round and will keep you posted!

PS: Thanks for the tip regarding the mic angle as well, I'll check that out during our next band rehearsal on Thursday.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that the equipment is the issue. You can get a burning sound on any horn that is set up for more commercial type playing.

The reason I say that is because of what you wrote about the Jupiter 1600i:

"12. Jupiter XO Ingram 1600i – I have tried it (in lacquer), and it’s a good horn but it was surprisingly heavy and not easier to get a brilliant sound than my current Yamaha, I believe."

I mean, this is Roger Ingram's horn of choice, and clearly, he has no issues with either the way it plays or with the sound he gets from it.

I also own this horn and find that in a commercial setting it has a sound that I really dig. Then again, I've got my horn/mouthpiece setup tailored to the task. The horn is part of it, but the Warburton 4SVW with the KT backbore puts plenty of burn, sizzle and zing in the sound.

Prior to the 1600i, I played a Schilke B6 with a Reeves alignment, and the sound was nice, but I was never very accurate on that horn. Whether that was me, the horn, or a combination of the two, I know that the 1600i has made things almost immeasurably easier. The sound is different - there's a brassiness to the 1600i that is very present in the sound, but it's a good brassiness.

I've posted these clips a couple of times, but IMO I sound pretty good on them, so I'll post them again. All of this is on the 1600i with the Warburton mouthpiece.

Trumpet solo starts on this one at about 1:58
https://soundcloud.com/trickg/downtown-new-monopoly-live

This one trumpet is prevalent throughout.
https://soundcloud.com/trickg/i-want-you-back-new-monopoly-live

I don't know if that's the kind of sound you're looking for or not. While I'm definitely playing with some energy, I'm not pushing a ton of air or volume - this horn has been great for helping me have chops left over at the end of a long gig.
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree that the Getzen Eterna Classic would be a good choice. I wore mine out, but it did give me trouble in legit settings as it was really bright.

I love playing my Conn 40B in rock and funk settings but I would not call it bright, but very cutting.
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jazztrumpet216
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were me, I’d be looking at a Schilke B6, a Benge 2x or 3x, and maybe the Yamaha YTR-732 or YTR-736 (632 or 636 if you want lacquer horns). When I think of the kind of sound you describe, those are the horns that help me get it. I have a YTR-734 that will do exactly as you describe, but I bet a 732 would do it a bit easier.
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like B-Starry, I think I've owned all the models discussed. And I think my Dom-made Calicchio 1S-7 or my Burbank Benge 3X would best meet the OP's goals - short of my Callet horns.

I got my first Callet, a .470 Soloist, about 1990. Traded my Benge CG for it and never looked back. I've since owned every Callet model, and I agree with Razeon that the Superchops in .460 would be the best older Callet, a real pile driver. But for me, Jerry's two current designs - .453 Sima and .460 NY Soloist - are even more powerful with less effort than the Superchops, and the sound out front is richer, denser, and even more in-tune than the others. IMO, the other horns can't touch these two.

*If anyone seriously wants to try my personal Sima or NY Soloist I can make it happen for just the cost of shipping. We can even do a country tour via UPS to save shipping costs if there is sufficient interest. Please no 'tire-kickers'. PM me if interested. - Kyle
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windandsong
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calicchio. 1s7 more mellow end of the spectrum if anything I thought.
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

windandsong wrote:
Calicchio. 1s7 more mellow end of the spectrum if anything I thought.


To me, that's a very surprising impression. Pitch issues, yes. Mellow? Never heard that.
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J-Walk
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

windandsong wrote:
Calicchio. 1s7 more mellow end of the spectrum if anything I thought.


This is opposite to my experience and I have played one for 12 years. My Schilke S32HD is not a dark horn, but sounds way darker and broader than my 1S7. I’ve never played a brighter horn than my Calicchio.
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DrKristensen
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm excited, humble and very grateful for all views, comments, and recommendations regarding horns, setup, etc. - they just keep pouring in!

Regarding my setup, I do agree with this being a critical factor. I've tried a bunch of different mouthpieces including Schilke 14A4a, Stork Studios (VM6 and XV6), Yamaha Shew Lead, Marcinkiewicz E8 and E7/E19, CKB 5E & 3E, Wick 5X, Warburton 3SV/KT, etc. Currently, my mouthpiece of choice is Yamaha 7A4. It seems to fit my lips, and it gives me a good, yet commercial sound, better endurance and the same range as some of the pieces that are even shallower. The Storks have more 'pop' in the sound, but they are less comfortable (for me). It has been some time since I've played on my Warburton, since I now generally prefer smaller cups; around 16 - 16.25mm. I have both the KT and the KT 80 series backbores, and the 80 series can produce very high volumes!

I recently received a Danish mouthpiece called Elberg - they're not very well known as far as I know, but the rim is super comfortable. I have a 3C-sized Elsberg that has a more powerful sound than any of my other mouthpieces. The one I just received is 16mm, with the same exact rim thickness and contour, and with a shallower cup and tighter backbore. It's called B10XSA. I'll share the results after Thursday's band rehearsal. If you're interested in checking them out, here is the link: https://gottfried.dk/images/PDF%20Catalogs/elsberg_samltabel.pdf
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Approach is much more important. Chances are your sound production is a chops/approach issue. I've never heard you, so maybe not. Usually I find that quality of tone is all concept/chops etc... on appropriate mpc to facilitate the sound... the last 5-10% is the horn.

That said, I know some horns brighten more as you push them harder while others keep a more uniform sound. Again only 5-10% difference here... any more is chops...

Of the horns I tested (quite a few while looking for a super even instrument) the large bore commercial Bach Strad was excellent at this while the ML was less so, and the Stomvi S3 was my eventual choice.

Good luck!

Mike
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windandsong
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-Walk wrote:
windandsong wrote:
Calicchio. 1s7 more mellow end of the spectrum if anything I thought.


This is opposite to my experience and I have played one for 12 years. My Schilke S32HD is not a dark horn, but sounds way darker and broader than my 1S7. I’ve never played a brighter horn than my Calicchio.


I found it was capable of both. It went bonkers if you pushed it but otherwise was pretty lazy. I never got on with that leadpipe, hated it. Original OP needs to know the 2 pipe and the 7 pipe are very different.

Cheers
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gchun01
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been playing a Schilke S42 with Reeves 43d69 for over 20 years. Especially with the Reeves 69 backbore, the horn has a good balance of projection and core.

I recently acquired a 1970's vintage Calicchio 1s/2 and its true what they say about the sound being very microphone friendly. This horn's sound hits the mic with BOTH the attack and the meat behind it, so it records very fat. The horn plays a bit freer than I'm used to. I often wonder if the 7 pipe would be a better fit for me.
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J-Walk
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gchun01 wrote:
I've been playing a Schilke S42 with Reeves 43d69 for over 20 years. Especially with the Reeves 69 backbore, the horn has a good balance of projection and core.

I recently acquired a 1970's vintage Calicchio 1s/2 and its true what they say about the sound being very microphone friendly. This horn's sound hits the mic with BOTH the attack and the meat behind it, so it records very fat. The horn plays a bit freer than I'm used to. I often wonder if the 7 pipe would be a better fit for me.


This is exactly why I play a 7 over a 2 pipe.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-Walk wrote:
windandsong wrote:
Calicchio. 1s7 more mellow end of the spectrum if anything I thought.


This is opposite to my experience and I have played one for 12 years. My Schilke S32HD is not a dark horn, but sounds way darker and broader than my 1S7. I’ve never played a brighter horn than my Calicchio.


I found the 1S/2 a little brighter, but less versatile. I find the Callet Superchops more versatile but no less bright, if that's what you're going for.

I couldn't comment on the 'bringing a gun to a knife fight' aspect of these two horns, but either will sufficiently bury the loudest of bands, if that's ever the goal
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DrKristensen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, to be used with caution but once in a while (if the situation calls for it) it would be useful to have that Bb lightsaber just to set the record straight. The comment of 'bringing a gun to a knife fight' made me think of this one (old, but still good):

Quote:
'There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality. There is the one that lives only to lay waste to the woodwinds and strings, leaving them lying blue and lifeless along the swath of destruction that is the trumpeter's fury. And then there's the dark side.'

---Michael Stewart (adapted from a Nike advertisement)---


It cracks me up every time I think of it
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrKristensen wrote:
Thanks! I have looked at the Burbank & Kanstul CG models and the sound is indeed very attractive. I am however a bit concerned that they require a bit too much air to fill up - despite the choked bell. The large bore horns I have tried in the past have made my endurance suffer, hence is why I initially ranked the 1s-7 before or over the 1s-2 and listed the 2X/3X instead of the CG model(s).

I guess it is possible to add some resistance by finding a mouthpiece with an even smaller drill size or backbore (I currently mostly use a Yamaha 7A4, which I find extremely comfortable and can get a good sound on - with the matching Yamaha 7F4 flugel mouthpiece).

Also, I'm curious about the extra thin bell - and how this works in a live setting. I'm usually very careful when putting my trumpet down on a stand and I do use a soft wind screen on my SM57 mic, but I do need to use a stand on stage (we often play on stages that are quite small, given that we are 10 guys on stage).


I don't think you have to worry about filling these horns up. In addition to the reduced bore at the bell tube, the bell flair on these horns is pretty tight (that's part of what makes them play so bright). I can tell you that both the Schilke B3 and the Schilke X3 feel more open to me when I play them than any of the CG trumpets (and the X3 feels a LOT bigger), even though the Schilkes have smaller bores. I think the Bell flair on a trumpet makes the biggest difference in how open or tight the horn feels.

With the lightweight of these horns you do have to be careful with them, but nothing extreme. I toured all over the U.S., Canada and Europe for a total of six years with these horns and other than the time I was playing in a Show Band in Holland under a tent during a storm and all of a sudden rain came leaking in onto the mixing board causing electrical mayhem, and I put my horn down on the stage before running to unplug the mixing board, where upon the Saxophone player stepped on my horn, and the time (also in Holland) when I was on the European Tour of the musical "Grease" and I managed to get my clip-on mike's cord wrapped around my ankle, and walked away after soundcheck and caused my own trumpet on its tall horn stand to fall to the stage floor (OOPS!!!), I never had any problems. But maybe it's best if you just stay away from Holland when playing lighter trumpets.

Seriously, in both those cases, any horn would have been trashed. And in both those cases, the shows' insurance covered all repairs - it was curious how the horns ended up gold plated after these incidents...

Cheers,

John
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Horns that sizzle Reply with quote

Hello all,
Steve Dillard aka the Horntrader has some videos up of some Calicchios, both 1S2's and 1S7's. The 1S bells were made to sizzle and the leadpipe just gave you the resistance to push against, depending on your style of playing. I personally like the 9 pipe better, as I like a little less resistance.
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