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Horn blows weird



 
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BStrad43
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject: Horn blows weird Reply with quote

An adult student of mine is having some weird issues with his b-flat. The horn plays terrible! It did not at first, great fantastic blowing horn and it has only gotten worse with time.

The blow feels like in-between a broken, leaking, spit valve and off valve alignment. Really have to blow to get low c to work. It has been cleaned by a good brass repair man, new spit valve corks and the valve alignment has been rechecked and fine. I put a practice mute in and blew really hard to see if there are any air leaks and nothing. Did the same with the main tuning slide, no air leaks around the spit valve.

It is a really good brand horn, not even two years old and he takes really good care of the horn. No damage other then a small dig in the bell from a fast mute change.

I am confused on what we can do next. Any advice? Can a horn become a lemon?

Thanks
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This happened to a friend of mine. Turns out the cap to a bottle of valve oil was jammed way far up in the bell, blocking airflow. If you clean a horn but don't actually get the snake through every nook and cranny then you can miss stuff like this. I'd recommend snaking out the horn to see if there's anything stuck in a pipe in a hard-to-reach area.

Hope that's helpful - good luck!
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Pete
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I would check if there is something stuck inside it: paper clip, pen cap, etc.

Pete
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Field-strip it, clean it, put it back together. Make sure the pistons are inserted correctly.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
Make sure the pistons are inserted correctly.


I had a student a while back that managed to not get the valve stem threaded properly and as a result the valve guide was not aligned properly so the holes did not line up (up or down). Took a little bit to figure that one out...
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought my Carol 506 and some notes were really wonky. It wasn't every combination, maybe just the ones with the 2nd valve. Anyway... the little plastic guide was upside down and once it was placed properly to sit in its groove it became a wonderful trumpet.

I second the others on checking out the valves. Make sure each valve is matched to the right slot and also that the guides and so forth line up. You may be able to get a better sense by looking through the slides to see if anything is badly aligned.
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Evinerate
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, give attention to the valve top screws and make sure the threading is not worn or loose, that could hide a misalignment when you do play the horn.

For worn threading that won't grip or hold, try "blue" color thread lock products.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My teacher knocked his horn off the stand onto the carpet and it appeared to be undamaged but it blew really wonky. He was a strong enough player that he could almost compensate, but it bugged him. I tried the horn and could barely play it. Sometime later he took it to a pro and found out that the receiver had become unsoldered and was under tension. When it was unsoldered and replaced the horn came back to its former brilliance.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkle wrote:
This happened to a friend of mine. Turns out the cap to a bottle of valve oil was jammed way far up in the bell, blocking airflow. If you clean a horn but don't actually get the snake through every nook and cranny then you can miss stuff like this. I'd recommend snaking out the horn to see if there's anything stuck in a pipe in a hard-to-reach area.

Hope that's helpful - good luck!


I'm a repair tech, had a customer bring in a YTR 6345, same deal. He insisted on trading it in on an old Bach that we had. Later, I ran a dent ball chaser through the bell from the 1st valve casing and out came a pencil stub! I played that horn myself for 6 months. One other thing, every once in a while even the best Techs might leave a dent ball in the horn. Hold a magnet around the bell crook. That's why I test the horns before I sign off on the repair.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A trumpet player that I have worked with in the past suddenly developed a problem with a horn that he has played for decades. His sound had become extremely muffled. He asked me to play it to see what I thought. I don't usually play anyone's horn but with my mouthpiece. No problem when I played. Handed it back to him, problem reappeared. Checking his mouthpiece, there appeared to be a semi-round object lodged inside. Pushing it out with an unbent paperclip revealed a medicine pill of some sort. Sometimes it's the easily missed little things that can create baffling issues. A thourough inspection beginning at the mouthpiece and working downstream may uncover the cause.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go for the easy solutions first, and then get to the more and more complex ones.

Dirt and blockages in the mouthpiece or elsewhere in the trumpet are the first issues to check.
Then water keys.
Then general constructions, joints, bits falling off valves.

If you find nothing and a good tech can't then possibly something has happened to the metal of the horn. I have had 2 Yamahas like this. Played great for a few years and then lost projection and core. No matter what I did they were a lost cause. They were a YTR-9335 and YTR-9345. Others agreed that they had no projection and no sparkle to the sound. I sold them...

You could tell us what brand they are!

cheers

Andy
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Dennis78
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar problem with my Blessing Artist cornet, turns out it was the smallest leak at a solder joint on the ferrule where the top slide leg connected to the tuning slide crook.
My solution was to rub in some candle wax. Now she plays fine again
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbtj51 wrote:
A trumpet player that I have worked with in the past suddenly developed a problem with a horn that he has played for decades. His sound had become extremely muffled. He asked me to play it to see what I thought. I don't usually play anyone's horn but with my mouthpiece. No problem when I played. Handed it back to him, problem reappeared. Checking his mouthpiece, there appeared to be a semi-round object lodged inside. Pushing it out with an unbent paperclip revealed a medicine pill of some sort. Sometimes it's the easily missed little things that can create baffling issues. A thourough inspection beginning at the mouthpiece and working downstream may uncover the cause.

Yeah, my son was struggling with his horn once insisting that it needed service. I scrubbed out his mouthpiece and had him play a few notes. The look on his face was priceless.
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Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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BStrad43
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you guys for the information!

It is not the mouthpiece, because mine was clean when I put it in to play test the horn for him and so was his. Plus my students know how crazy I am about cleaning and disinfecting mouthpieces I am. (When I was a freshman in college I got the worst pimple possible right near my lip and looked down the mouthpiece and it was beyond disgusting)

Also, we put in a different tuning slide to see if his was the problem and it still blows terrible.

Valve alignment check was recent and should not be an issue.

We ran snakes through all ends of the horn and even used Bob Reeves swab too. Nothing stuck in the horn.

Do techs have those camera scopes to look down the horn to see if there are bad soldering?

So next steps:

1. Get soldering checked
2. Maybe the horn did get knocked over and need to recheck the braces
3. This horn is getting bad with age.
4: Anything else?
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BStrad43 wrote:

Do techs have those camera scopes to look down the horn to see if there are bad soldering?


If all you're looking for are blobs, you can pick up a "borescope" for <$15 online...

Odds are though, if it used to play well and now doesn't, it's not that.

Is this a lacquered or silver plated horn? (Should be too new for significant redrot etc, but you never know...)

Have any parts been changed at all? Right down to valve springs, etc


I'd be looking for something that's changed - if it was good and is now awful, odds are something has changed.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
BStrad43 wrote:

Do techs have those camera scopes to look down the horn to see if there are bad soldering?


If all you're looking for are blobs, you can pick up a "borescope" for <$15 online...

Odds are though, if it used to play well and now doesn't, it's not that.

Is this a lacquered or silver plated horn? (Should be too new for significant redrot etc, but you never know...)

Have any parts been changed at all? Right down to valve springs, etc


I'd be looking for something that's changed - if it was good and is now awful, odds are something has changed.

Be sure you check out the diameter of the scope to ensure it will fit into your tubing. Don’t ask me how I figured that out.

I agree with you that the valve alignment “shouldn’t” be an issue, but, if it were me, I would pull each slide crook and do a rough check.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Horn blows weird Reply with quote

BStrad43 wrote:
An adult student of mine is having some weird issues with his b-flat. The horn plays terrible! It did not at first, great fantastic blowing horn and it has only gotten worse with time.

The blow feels like in-between a broken, leaking, spit valve and off valve alignment. Really have to blow to get low c to work. It has been cleaned by a good brass repair man, new spit valve corks and the valve alignment has been rechecked and fine. I put a practice mute in and blew really hard to see if there are any air leaks and nothing. Did the same with the main tuning slide, no air leaks around the spit valve.

It is a really good brand horn, not even two years old and he takes really good care of the horn. No damage other then a small dig in the bell from a fast mute change.

I am confused on what we can do next. Any advice? Can a horn become a lemon?

Thanks


Questions:

- what make/model is the horn?
- how old is it?
- did the problem occur gradually or all at once?
- did the problem occur before or after the cleaning/valve alignment?
- are all of the parts on the horn original parts?
- does the student remember any particular event(s) happening to the horn which did or did not leave any evidence (i.e. "Oh yeah, it did slip off of my chair that time last month.....")
- did you 'field strip' it as recommended above? Take EVERY SINGLE PART/SLIDE out examine and replace?
- were the springs, valve guides, etc. replace during service?
- any home repairs or alterations done on the horn that haven't been mentioned?
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on an old experience I had with a 'Perry Como' model trumpet...

1. If it has valve springs inside a turret, check the valve guide is not reversed and the valves therefore back to front

2. Look and check that valves 1, 2 & 3 are in the correct casings!

I was loaned a trmypet as a kid while on holiday in Europe. The owner sounded dreadful! He made gestures - you know, the lips. We all smiled and nodded.

There was a valve in the wrong hold and another reversed. Sounded pretty damn good after that! That was one Carabinieri I was not going to ask for help...

cheers

Andy
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BStrad43 wrote:
So next steps:

1. Get soldering checked
2. Maybe the horn did get knocked over and need to recheck the braces
3. This horn is getting bad with age.
4: Anything else?

Make sure the corks on the water keys are in place.

Mike
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