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What makes a great player stand out from another?


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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject: What makes a great player stand out from another? Reply with quote

In a trumpet section in which every player has been through Arban and Clarke, practices daily, and takes lessons, what makes the principal player stand out from the rest? What has this player done to make themselves that much more proficient than the next player? I find that as the level of ensembles moves up and as the age of the players increase, the skill level becomes more and more even.
I am referring to the situation where each player has mastered material much harder than what their ensemble is playing. Are the “stand out” players the ones who are naturally gifted? Do they just have more experience? Is it better understanding of the music and better sense of musicianship?
As I have begun to practice more and more, this is a concept that has been in the back of my mind. What’s the purpose of pushing the tempo faster and faster on the Clarke exercises, learning Carnival of Venice, and striving for a triple tongue like Rafael Mendez if it is much harder than anything we will ever play in a gig? The first thing that comes to my mind is that it makes everything easier. But what good does that do if the repertoire is already easy for you and every other fellow trumpeter in the band? So from there I think “it must be sound quality that makes one player better than another.” But that’s just a matter of opinion, isn’t it, when each player has a warm and full sound?
This may be a strange post but it’s something that has been on my mind, and I believe the answer may guide my practice to achieve better results. It is an open ended post so please share whatever thoughts come to you! Thank you!
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sound
Rhythm
Time
Style
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ego?
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Sound
Rhythm
Time
Style


100% but I always lumped the last 3 in with #1 sound. My only experience with really good players was in the 60’s in the Big Band ranks. The good lead players just LEAD. Set the sound,rhythm and style. At least the ones I worshipped. Seemed to me those who were real good were at the front of a bands sound.
Rod
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does that just take more practice time? More experience?
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
Does that just take more practice time? More experience?


The guys I really admired just had a feel for the way the tunes should go and sound and led the bands in that direction, and were not afraid to be out front. I think anyone who has patience and a great work ethic can become a very talented player who people will want to hear, but the greats have that and a feel and they take the sound there. Again I know very little of the discipline it takes to do orchestral or solo rep. But to me big band was about the feel and the swing and the FAT sound, and I’m talking about the cream too!
I’d be happy just to be able to play the notes on Woody Hermans lead book, let alone swing doing it>
Rod
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A special innate talent that others, no matter how excellent and musical they are, just don't quite have.
There are some players who can do it all, lead a section and sit in the section. They are few and far between.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTeriMaSAUg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlvzGT1Ta2w
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: What makes a great player stand out from another? Reply with quote

I agree with Vin DiBona alot. The player that is so confident in their abilities that they can lead or sit in the section and let someone else lead, all skills being fairly close, is a great player. Certainly, orchestras put alot of stock in being the principle. Those people also know how to play in a small group or say brass quintet and play for the sound of the group. Look at all the session musicians in Hollywood that may do both within a day. All the musicians that I consider great lead trumpeters still strive to improve, even at an advanced age like I find myself at now!
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Sustained note
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTeriMaSAUg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlvzGT1Ta2w


So Ed, was it Conrad Gozzo who played the American in Paris trumpet solo?
(the second YT video)
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
Does that just take more practice time? More experience?


Yes, and it takes more LEARNING.

Imitate
Assimilate
Innovate
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meoates1
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure if you referring to any type of music specifically... but this question presupposes that the principal player is the "best." At very high levels everyone is great at a variety of things- think of a basketball, baseball, or football team. At the highest levels, everyone is great- and each has unique strengths. Reliability is a trait or strength that makes a great first trumpeter.
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading the replies so far, I'm somewhat confused by the intent of the question. Before reading the responses, my answer would be that a truly great player always nails the parts, regardless of the circumstances. Two experiences come to mind: I played an early morning rehearsal with Al Porcino. He was just out of bed - no warmup - and he was flawless. Another time, I played an orchestral summer season in New Hampshire. The oboe player was the principal from the Met (Alfred Genovese?). He was perfect in rehearsal and performance. Another player from the Met said he'd never heard him make the slightest error.

After reading the replies, I thought about artistry. A great player defines the style and makes everyone in the section a better player.

My two cents.

Alan
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Betelgeuse215
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pepperdean wrote:
After reading the replies so far, I'm somewhat confused by the intent of the question. Before reading the responses, my answer would be that a truly great player always nails the parts, regardless of the circumstances. Two experiences come to mind: I played an early morning rehearsal with Al Porcino. He was just out of bed - no warmup - and he was flawless. Another time, I played an orchestral summer season in New Hampshire. The oboe player was the principal from the Met (Alfred Genovese?). He was perfect in rehearsal and performance. Another player from the Met said he'd never heard him make the slightest error.

After reading the replies, I thought about artistry. A great player defines the style and makes everyone in the section a better player.

My two cents.

Alan


The principal does not make the section better. The section determines how good the principal sounds to the audience. A principal is only as good as his section is.
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Shark01
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Combination of natural talent and work ethic.....
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matthes93401
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the perspective of this serious amateur enthusiastic and collector of classical music recordings, a great performer has "presence."

I was recently listening to recordings of Aaron Copland by the New York Philharmonic, "Music for the Theater", recorded in the 1960's I think, and the Clarinet Concerto recorded in the early 1990's. The clarinet soloist of both eras, Stanley Drucker, has presence. You know its him, he captures and keeps your attention.

Another artist with as much presence as anyone is the 1920's/30's singer Conchita Supervia. Look her up on YouTube. Her excerpts of Carmen are worth collecting from Amazon. She could do anything with her voice, no limits!
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an essence in some players which commands attention of both the listener and other musicians they are playing with. It hasmuch to do with rhythmic accuracy, a great sound, musical phrasing etc. It will lift the ensemble and generate excitement.

But there is something else, something intangible that is either innate, or learned over many years. It makes you think, 'That's it, this is how it REALLY goes'.

Wagner termed it 'melos', the art of phrasing it in an organic manner which is so convincing it is just perfect.

cheers

Andy
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
There is an essence in some players which commands attention of both the listener and other musicians they are playing with. It hasmuch to do with rhythmic accuracy, a great sound, musical phrasing etc. It will lift the ensemble and generate excitement.

But there is something else, something intangible that is either innate, or learned over many years. It makes you think, 'That's it, this is how it REALLY goes'.

Wagner termed it 'melos', the art of phrasing it in an organic manner which is so convincing it is just perfect.

cheers

Andy


+1!
Precicely my view! Wagner who also said "to attain that cataleptic state of mind necessary for every musical performanc of the highest degree" - or something like that - meaning that we have a guy that indulges in the music, trancending from just playing the score into "melos".
A very recognized researcher within child development, Daniel Stern, added another term "the estetic moment" - when communication suddenly establishes itself and the message reaches the "soul" of the listener - one "understands", gets deeply moved, something is shared (like a feeling) etc. Contact of the 4:rth degree...
Not easy to describe in words ´cause it is sort of a "bodily" feeling but you know when you have experienced "it".
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Sound
Rhythm
Time
Style


The absolute control of those elements, and then the ability to tie it all together and make it sound/feel effortless.

i.e. like listening to Sinatra sing.. You hear him and think, wow, that's simple, I could do that. Then you try, and realize how amazing he was.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Sound
Rhythm
Time
Style


The absolute control of those elements, and then the ability to tie it all together and make it sound/feel effortless.

i.e. like listening to Sinatra sing.. You hear him and think, wow, that's simple, I could do that. Then you try, and realize how amazing he was.


Listening to Sinatra taught me as much as listening to Snookie.
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