Losing tone

[richarddownunder]

Hi there

This topic may have been done a fair bit over the years but there seem to be a few peculiarities with my case. I've played for years. Fairy intensively when young but intermittently since then and almost exclusively on a Yamaha C latterly. I'm not so young now but have re-joined a concert band and am playing 1st trumpet. The band is of reasonable amateur standard and the music is fairly demanding.

While I have never been a brilliant player, I've never really had tone problems before but am finding F on the top line is often fuzzy now and G the same. Both notes are also very sharp while A above isn't usually so bad and lower notes are flat. I suspect it may be muscle fatigue and maybe I need to mix the higher parts with lower to get my chops in a bit better shape. It does improve after a few days not playing (which is hard to do as I want to practice).

I've tried long quiet low notes, slurring exercises, and trying to aim for my old sound playing slow movements of concertos I used to be able to play well enough. It comes and goes. To make matters worse, I have a new trumpet, a B&S Challenger 2 reverse leadpipe. After the initial romance, we find we don’t really like one another and as the friendship isn't growing maybe a divorce is imminent! - it is supposed to be a reasonable instrument though (even though the valves leak like a sieve). A bad workman always blames his tools, they say, but it's sad to think it's me and I have lost my mojo!

Any suggestions. Why F and G for a start while those above and below are not so bad?

Thanks in advance

Richard

[zaferis]

Sounds like a change in instruments has affected other things.

Then, for starters the 6th overtones series (1st valve F, 2nd F#, and open G) are naturally sharp.
Then some trumpets are better than others-after the "honeymoon" are you finding the true nature of the instrument?. Minor changes in design and manufacturing quality can show up in the craziest things.
Add those factors with some affect of mouthpiece influence (rim and cup design), gap issues and you end up with some crazy tuning.

Also consider that you've been playing a lot of C (your words), you may have been making some chop adjustments on the C that don't work on the Bb, which may be compouding things.

Another thought is regarding the reverse leadpipe setup. The setup does adress some things (pitch of the 5th overtone series particularly), but I've noticed that it changes the "blow" of the upper register in a less than possitive direction..


I'd start by practicing with a tuner, working on scales and locking in pitch (train my ear-chops) and be mindful of where the tuning slide is set. As you go up and down scales, slowly, is your slide in the opitimal position or are you lipping everything down? (side affect would be to make those sharp notes even sharper.) Close your eyes, center a note then check the tuner.
IMO tuning a Bb trumpet to concert A is highly affective, often more representative of the center of the instrument, and less bendable.. - the concert Bb can be a "slippery" note, easy to lip up or down.

After all that, it could be just a dog of a horn (hopefully not)
best of luck
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[roynj]

A couple things come to mind. First is that you can kick out that 1st slide a bit to bring the top line F into tune. The others you will need to work on with a tuner as has been suggested. I do believe that your new Bb trumpet may be providing less resistance than previously with your C trumpet, which can cause your lips to blow out a bit more, especially when tired. This may be giving you some tone issues. Try backing off, and playing a bit softer on those trouble notes might help to correct the tone. Your chops will adjust to the more open feel if you play softer for a while. Also rest more when you play, so that you can retain lip freshness. The 1st trumpet part can be demanding, especially if it's going to be one player per part. I'd also suggest backing off one dynamic level on all higher notes and see if that helps. Don't worry, the sound will carry and will be more in tune. A very well respected music director I know told me the other day that when an ensemble is having intonation problems that it helps for the band to play softer. It also helps with individual playing I've found.

[iiipopes]

Drop the back of your tongue and relax the jaw a little bit to slightly lessen the velocity of air. That may bring the notes back into their proper slots.
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King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet

[Andy Del]

It sounds very much as if the intonation tendencies are being exaggerated past what one normally expects.

This can often point to a lack of support and air flow. You can try to speed your air up and provide more support, and just see what happens to your pitch and intonation.

Or, just play your C in the band. It's not unheard of and quite often works rather well. I fond that last week when I discovered a C trumpet in my case. The Bb was across town and who can be bothered going all that way?

cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...

[richarddownunder]

Thanks for all the suggestions . I'll try tuning to an A or an F as suggested and going up and down scales with a tuner when I'm rested. There are 2 first trumpets - the other guy plays everything VERY LOUD so maybe I'm trying too hard to balance - I can hardly hear myself play most of the time. The horn was apparently tested by the lead chair in the NZ Symphony Orchestra (as I had some issues with the leaky valves) - and apparently he thought it was fine (2nd hand info) but I'm wondering whether the open RL pipe is causing my chops a problem as mentioned especially after the C. I might try borrowing another trumpet and check my intonation - is it me or the horn? May just be my flabby old face muscles aint what they used to be!

I'm not good enough to read and transpose immediately to the C, wish I was as the C is a lovely instrument.

Cheers
Richard

[Andy Del]

Ah, it's THAT trumpet!

Step 1. Saying a pro 'tested' the trumpet is not the same as showing you the manufacturer's specs and having them verified, or the result of a maghellenic (sp?) machine test. (you can do almost the same, search James Becker's posts for how to do this on a 'new' trumpet.


I have found B&S trumpets to be wildly variable, some are great, others not at all. Keep it in mind!

The flat middle register and squirrely mid range may be the result of leaky valves. Try playing a middle G from very soft and just crescendo WITHOU
T trying to hold pitch. If it goes way flat, then there is an issue.

Soooo.... you feel your transposition isn't up to snuff? There is a VERY easy fix for this. Leave the Bb at home and make yourself do it. In a month, you'll be fine! maybe take the parts home for a week beforehand to get going on it, of course.

cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...

[richarddownunder]

Yes, THAT trumpet indeed! Ended up keeping it as I needed something to play and it was all becoming complicated, but I'm hoping to get it checked out independantly. The 'romance' I mentioned, was short lived - about an hour in the shop.

Talking with an independant technician, B&S valves, in general, seem to hold less vacuum than other brands, but seem, from his experience, to play well. I didn't get a reply of any help from B&S after trying for several months. These valves leak. No question. I can stick a rubber ball in the bell and hear the hiss from them when I blow.

To be honest, I think even if the trumpet has issues, so do my chops. As mentioned, one way to know for sure is to try another horn with a tuner. After the next concert, I might try to borrow a Xeno for a practice.

I'll think about using the C but I struggle to read well enough with the Bb.

Cheers
Richard

[richarddownunder]

[oddchance]

If a tone change is a real recent change, I'd check the water key cork on the main tuning slide. I tend to play vintage horns - ok maybe better considered relics now. I have had some issues with the water key corks or water keys closing fully - sometimes due to the corks gone bad or needing some oil on/in the water key hinge so that things close properly.
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70's era King Silver Flair

[cheiden]

Leaks are the worst. I'd borrow or rent a different horn for a while to eliminate that as a potential source for the problem. Do you get any less leaking with different valve oil?

I had a buddy with a leaky old horn that sorely needed cleaning. After I scrubbed it down and relubricated the leaking stopped.

FWIW my son's B&S plays just fine with no valve issues such that I've noticed.
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Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
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[Harryw413]

Perhaps some more time spent on mouthpiece buzzing?