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trompette24 Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2011 Posts: 56 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:25 am Post subject: Overhaul old Bach, Good or Bad? |
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I have a very old Bach that is in decent physical condition. Bell is in good shape, a few minor dents. I took it to a reputable shop and they told me that the valves appear to be non-Bach (monel?) but they can figure out why the horn isn't centering without taking it apart piece by piece (they horn has had misc repairs in the past, no patches though).
The bell engraving it good but looks like parts have been buffed a little too much, not terrible though like another horn where it's almost impossible to read.
Ultimate question, I'm thinking of getting this horn completely overhauled but leaving it raw brass. I would like the actually use the horn instead of it just sitting around looking cool.
Does overhauling a horn like this hurt or increase it's value?
For those curious, it is a large bore Bb Bach #1 bell, Serial #102. _________________ -Russell Zimmer, DMA
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I would email Jim Becker at Osmun Brass and see what he thinks.
I find it difficult to believe that it would be impossible to determine what is causing problems with an instrument without disassembling it piece by piece. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2641 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:49 am Post subject: |
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New York Bach serial number 102?
I’d say it’s worth a bit of money.
Valves would not be monel of course that early in Bach history.
Find the shop card by asking Bach, and you might get some history on it. Who ordered it and what features the customer wanted. It might be a piece of history.
If it was never buffed or overhauled it would be more valuable, but my guess is that a good craftsman could make it look and play without a lot of metal coming off. Could need a valve re-fit if it was played a lot, and leadpipe don’t last as long as the rest of the Horn sometimes depending on acidity etc.
That is hand made by VB himself right there _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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MrOlds Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 720 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: |
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If it were my decision I’d leave it alone. It’s a historical piece. It’s value is in the age and patina.
And even with a very good rebuild it would not play or sound like a modern Bach. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I would go over to visit Best Instrument Repair. I don't know if Dick is still there, I heard he had retired, and later heard he was back.
But get a second opinion, and that shop had a very good reputation. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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I'd send it to a top repair shop for a consultation (Robb Stewart, Osmun,...). Given the relative rarity of that horn, I'd hesitate to do any more than was absolutely required to resolve any perceived problem. I'd resist making any change to the finish if you don't have to. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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silverhorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 681
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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This is a good question and I think it depends. Certain collectors would only want to buy a trumpet in original condition which may limit your potential buyers if you are trying to sell. However, I have had several of my horns restored by master brass technicians and had them include a written appraisal which documents the increased value of the horn after restoration.
For me personally, I have bought restored trumpets if it's been restored by someone I have confidence in. Otherwise, I prefer to buy a trumpet in original condition so that I can have it restored the way I want it by someone that I know will do outstanding work on it.
Another issue to keep in mind is that many times a trumpet will not play exactly the same after it has been restored. There are plenty of stories of people getting their horns restored and then the horn plays worse or differently than before. In my own experience, all of my horns that have been restored played similar or better than before, but I make sure to only have them restored by the top people in the industry.
Ultimately, it is a personal decision to get the horn restored or not. If I was going to definitely flip the horn, I would probably not bother getting it restored so that I would have a bigger pool of potential buyers that included those who only were interested in original condition horns. However, if I was going to play it, I would personally find a top restorer to work on my horn, especially if it had playing issues to begin with. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I'd send it to a top repair shop for a consultation (Robb Stewart, Osmun,...). Given the relative rarity of that horn, I'd hesitate to do any more than was absolutely required to resolve any perceived problem. I'd resist making any change to the finish if you don't have to. |
After reading all the travails of the guy who shipped his horn and had it stolen, I would probably get in the car, drive across the bridge and visit the "top repair" shop of Dick Akright. |
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interfx Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2001 Posts: 678 Location: Atlanta, GA
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trompette24 Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2011 Posts: 56 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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I was advised to take the horn to Robb Stewart by Lionel at Hornucopia in San Carlos (for those of you in the Bay Area). The horn was repaired at some point ages ago and has a couple non-Bach parts such as a small brace.
I would mainly want to get the horn in better playing condition. Possibly go over the bell engraving on some spots, if that doesn't damage it.
[/img] _________________ -Russell Zimmer, DMA
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bixtone Veteran Member
Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 162
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Robb is the guy for Bach restorations. He rebuilt a NY Bach for me and it is stunning! _________________ Besson MEHA
NY Bach
Shires |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2309 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Get in touch with Tedd Waggoner at the Bach offices in Elkhart.. he may be able to get you some that you won't find anywhere else _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:30 am Post subject: |
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If you want a piece of history, I wouldn't fix it. If you want something to play, I'd sell it and get a new trumpet that probably plays better. _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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pc2001197 Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2012 Posts: 116 Location: Lexington KY
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Second/Third on Robb Stewart, however to my knowledge he is moving shop so you might need some time to get a reply from him. But if this is an early early NY Bach it is worth just to get Robb's opinion on it.
Don't quote me on that but I believe Bach was buying someone else's valve blocks in his earliest days (maybe Holton?), so it could make sense if they look apart from a standard Bach these days.
Cheers,
Victor _________________ Victor
n+1 and counting
VY Trumpets |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Overhaul old Bach, Good or Bad? |
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trompette24 wrote: |
Ultimate question, I'm thinking of getting this horn completely overhauled but leaving it raw brass. I would like the actually use the horn instead of it just sitting around looking cool.
Does overhauling a horn like this hurt or increase it's value?
For those curious, it is a large bore Bb Bach #1 bell, Serial #102. |
Value really depends on what you want to do with it. I have always maintained that an instrument's true value is intrinsic to what it is or what it's for. So, for me an instrument meant for making music but is not playable is worthless.
But then, I am not a collector.
If you want to be able to use the horn and actually play it, then go for it. It will have a different sound than modern horns. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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trompette24 Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2011 Posts: 56 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetchops wrote: | If you want a piece of history, I wouldn't fix it. If you want something to play, I'd sell it and get a new trumpet that probably plays better. |
Good point... _________________ -Russell Zimmer, DMA
AR Trumpets and Mouthpieces
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Bach Mt. Vernon Trumpet 37/43
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trompette24 Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2011 Posts: 56 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Overhaul old Bach, Good or Bad? |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | If you want to be able to use the horn and actually play it, then go for it. It will have a different sound than modern horns. |
I think I’ll get it fully looked over, perhaps replace to the non-Bach stud/ brace. Try to find where it might be leaking and try to just get the horn playing a little better, more focused. _________________ -Russell Zimmer, DMA
AR Trumpets and Mouthpieces
Bach Mt. Vernon Trumpet 43/7
Bach Mt. Vernon Trumpet 37/43
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 649 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:34 am Post subject: |
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If you see this horn as a brass artefact you have to leave it like it is now but why? Horns are made for making music not as non static pieces of art
If it was mine I'd ship it to Charlie Melk an let him do his magic: He did with my beat-up Olds Super from the late 40's so I can use her again every day _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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Paul in GA Regular Member
Joined: 04 May 2016 Posts: 25 Location: Roswell, GA
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:48 am Post subject: |
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I would also speak with Steve Winans, AKA Doctor Valve in the Chicago area. He and Josh Landress are the two best at this kind of work. There are a lot of great techs out there but few who deserve to be called craftsmen.
Both Josh and Steve are craftsmen and know how work with horns of your vintage. Good luck! |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:31 am Post subject: |
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trompette24 wrote: | I was advised to take the horn to Robb Stewart by Lionel at Hornucopia in San Carlos (for those of you in the Bay Area). The horn was repaired at some point ages ago and has a couple non-Bach parts such as a small brace.
I would mainly want to get the horn in better playing condition. Possibly go over the bell engraving on some spots, if that doesn't damage it.
[/img] |
Yes, Robb's the guy, IMO. The big downer on this instrument are the new pistons. Someone took the spring barrels from the original pistons and soldered them on some monel pistons. That alone cuts the value and historical interest, unfortunately. It's also had a LOT of work done to it, much of it bad. There are small parts that are not original or missing, and will have to be fabricated, which is one of Mr. Stewart's specialties.
And it doesn't center at all, plays like there's a leak somewhere. There are multiple patches, including a bell ferrule that's covering up unknown damage. It will require lots of time and attention.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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