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Olds Long Shank Cornet.. Sources ?


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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Olds Long Shank Cornet.. Sources ? Reply with quote

Greetings. I just picked up a really nice Olds Special Cornet from 1954. It came with a Whaley Royce mpc. They were a chain store/ manufacturer from Toronto, so I trust this is not really compatible with the horn. It does fit well but in the course of a C Major octave , I get about a 25 cent roll off flat from about G upwards. My first suspect is the MPC as I understand that the rare "long shanks" (am i using the right term ?) are the only ones that I can expect to work well.

Olds of course made these mpcs but they are harder to find than Bin Laden. I do understand that Curry makes a few too but he is in the middle of a move to Florida and if Murphy's Laws set in, as they usually do, I'm predicting his move will go into overtime. He will be crazy busy, too much so to spend time answering this Chimp's questions for a few months. Flugles are out of the question as my research suggests they are fraught with problems .... gap...intonation etc.

Suggestions for modest budgets ??
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... by the way, I have a set of 3 three, odd sized , short shank Curry's for my Tri-tone Special and love them. Bummer I couldn't used them in the earlier long shank horn.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fastest and cheapest solution would be to find an "American standard"/ "Bach shank"/ small morse taper flugelhorn mouthpiece, which will have the same shank as a vintage olds cornet mpc
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JeffM729
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the answers to all your questions, I believe.

Olds Large Shank Cornet Mouthpieces

http://rouses.net/trumpet/cornetmpc/cornetmpc.htm#Yamaha
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bixtone
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim New, Curry and Warburton can make them for you.

Bob Reeves can re-shank an existing mouthpiece if you have an Olds mouthpiece to use as a pattern.

I’ve found all of the above to be pretty reasonable price wise.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffM729 wrote:
Here are the answers to all your questions, I believe.

Olds Large Shank Cornet Mouthpieces

http://rouses.net/trumpet/cornetmpc/cornetmpc.htm#Yamaha


Yes that was my main source of info and why despite Goby's suggestion, I'd not use a flugel. As far as getting one custom made, I'm sure that would require a mortgage. I guess I wait until Mike Curry is settled in as I believe he has them in stock. I forgot to mention that I am a machinist with a pretty decent shop. Since the short shanks are smaller diameter, but not by much, I'd experiment with making an adapter sleeve, If I only had the two taper dimensions. It won't be a walk in the park as the walls will be quite thin but I have a few tricks up my sleeve for that....no pun intended. Anyone know where the dimensions might be found ?
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an afterthought, has anyone considered getting a new short shank receiver installed ? Also, if i may, was Olds the only company that used that shank ?
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Oncewasaplayer
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warburton offers cornet shanks in the Olds size. Match the shank of your choice (then request the Olds taper) with the top you want and you're good to go. (I found them to be quite responsive and quick to fulfill my request.)
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oncewasaplayer wrote:
Warburton offers cornet shanks in the Olds size. Match the shank of your choice (then request the Olds taper) with the top you want and you're good to go. (I found them to be quite responsive and quick to fulfill my request.)


At what cost though ..... that's the thing. i continue to be the patient hunter and pick these horns up for 50 to 100 dollars. I don't want to spend more on the mouthpieces and it would be the ideal to somehow use the short shank Curry's I already have. That's my ideal outcome.

It seems the only way to do that is with an adapter or making a new receiver. I think I can make either of them but how will they sound, I do not know. i think I could even make the receiver tunable ... ie threaded for depth adjustment. I was also thinking that surely someone with the same problem has tried this already.

The adapter would be tough due to the final wall thickness and probably prone to problems. In either case what I really need are some taper numbers, if anyone has that info.

By the way, i measured the Whaley Royce and it goes to a depth of 1.025, far deeper than the recommended 0.875 +/- 0.062. I don't know what it is. but it doesn't work in terms of intonation. I suspect it's a flugle.


Last edited by Abraxas on Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be nice to get some official dimensions. Olds Central data looked pretty sketchy.

Last edited by Abraxas on Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:37 pm    Post subject: Olds shank Reply with quote

Hello all,
I agree with the Warburton comment. I called the folks there once to get the Olds taper shank. They had blanks made already and just had to drill the inner taper. I had the shank in just days.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deleted post

Last edited by Abraxas on Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Olds shank Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
Hello all,
I agree with the Warburton comment. I called the folks there once to get the Olds taper shank. They had blanks made already and just had to drill the inner taper. I had the shank in just days.



At what cost ???? The other issue is having to buy several if one is prone to switching or at least trying others.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With Olds cornet mouthpieces, it's not a long/short shank issue - it's a shank diameter issue. There are probably thousands of the Olds "large shank" cornet mouthpieces out there, and they aren't that expensive. You just have to be patient and keep a watch on eBay. Ask around here and on Trumpet Master, too. Here's the real problem, though... 99.9% of them will be an Olds 3, which is not a very good cornet mouthpiece. They are somewhat small and shallow, so if you prefer larger mouthpieces, you won't like it.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
With Olds cornet mouthpieces, it's not a long/short shank issue - it's a shank diameter issue. There are probably thousands of the Olds "large shank" cornet mouthpieces out there, and they aren't that expensive. You just have to be patient and keep a watch on eBay. Ask around here and on Trumpet Master, too. Here's the real problem, though... 99.9% of them will be an Olds 3, which is not a very good cornet mouthpiece. They are somewhat small and shallow, so if you prefer larger mouthpieces, you won't like it.


Thanks Dale. The problem I'm having with Ebay listings is that a lot of the sellers don't even know what they have and consequently don't title the listing properly. Even those that do, will not put it clearly in the title or production description. You are right too, a 3C isn't really what I want.

I remain tempted to make a whole new receiver to use my current collection of Curry's and I almost have enough data. Now I just need the proper ID of the standard taper for the regular cornet mouthpiece. I'm wondering if I might not be throwing the whole dynamic of the horn off by playing smaller diameter mpcs in a horn designed for larger. I'm surprised no one has tried this yet or manufacturers haven't produced replacement receivers.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check around for a trashed later (beginning with s/n 189611) Olds cornet or the receiver from one. It's possible that someone here or a local shop may have one, and you might find a junker on eBay for cheap. That way, you'll still have an Olds receiver and it will fit the leadpipe correctly.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
Check around for a trashed later (beginning with s/n 189611) Olds cornet or the receiver from one. It's possible that someone here or a local shop may have one, and you might find a junker on eBay for cheap. That way, you'll still have an Olds receiver and it will fit the leadpipe correctly.


I'll have to check out the lead pipe diameter and see if it all fits. From the hour or more I spent last night, taking measurements of the receiver, the outside dimension were highly irregular. So much so, that it would be impossible to chuck in a lathe and still run true for opening it up at the lead pipe.

In any event, I just came home with a chunk of brass to try and make an adapter. I know what taper the large shank is, but still don't know about the taper on the mouthpieces. I could figure it out, by taking measurements of anyone of my Curry's but I'm confident I'd scratch it up in the process. Surely someone must know what the taper is of the modern cornet , no ????
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The standard Bach cornet mouthpiece is 2.75" long, inserts into the receiver 0.875", is 0.341" O.D. at the small end and 0.385" O.D. at the insertion depth (0.875" from the small end). The taper is .050" per inch.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
The standard Bach cornet mouthpiece is 2.75" long, inserts into the receiver 0.875", is 0.341" O.D. at the small end and 0.385" O.D. at the insertion depth (0.875" from the small end). The taper is .050" per inch.



Bingo !! Thanks again Dale. Only the taper registers as anything standard but represents the important info, in any event. I should be able to do something with this info. Cheers.
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is probably a shank diameter issue. The standard cornet shank taper starts at .341" There are some smaller ones that will start at .337". The standard Bach spec from years ago starts at .355". We have made cornets blanks for some Olds horns that start at .365".

All the tapers are the same .050" per inch. For every .001" you increase the diameter you will change the engagement .02".

We worked on projects for Charlie Melk restoring these Olds cornets. He can provide info it you contact him as well.

Old Standards used for decades.

Bach Standards #349 Cornet - .341" beginning diameter, engagement of 7/8" or .875", end of engagement or receiver opening .385" Taper is .0500" per inch.

GR
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