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Tendermeat
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Joined: 04 Dec 2017
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 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:23 am Post subject: Widening aperture for hitting high |
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| So the past month I noticed that as I ascend in range my aperture has to set bigger, therefore more pressure. I am almost 100% certain that this is what limits my range and endurance. I'm also confused as to how I would come about fixing this. I have tried to get it smaller without getting big and I just thin out. Currently using bach 3c. |
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Tpt_Guy
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Joined: 16 Jul 2004
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Location: Sacramento, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Practice the smaller aperture more. Probably not the answer you wanted, but it's true. It does take time for chamges like this to settle in.
Another thing to factor in is lip intrusion. A smaller aperture means more lip inside the cup, means more potential for lip intrusion. This can cause what is known as "bottoming out" - meaning the lips make contact with the cup where they shouldn't. A buddy of mine uses an old Corp. model 5B on piccolo to handle a thin airy sound and bottoming out. An extreme case, but it serves as an example.
But the first step is to practice it more and only after that if it doesn't resolve, check out other mpcs. A 3C is relatively shallow as C cups go.
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Turkle
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think that mezzo-piano lip slurs and scales throughout all registers are a great way to get your aperture under control.
I have found that high notes aren't just about the aperture. You need to bring your tongue level up as well, from an "ah" vowel to an "eee" vowel. By creating a smaller area in the back of your mouth, you'll take the heat off your aperture. Your lips should have to do as little work as possible. Maybe that will help you keep from blowing your lips apart.
Good luck!
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Robert P
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Widening aperture for hitting high |
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| Tendermeat wrote: | | So the past month I noticed that as I ascend in range my aperture has to set bigger |
How have you determined this?
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Trumpet Professional Bobby Shew addresses this here:
http://www.bobbyshew.com/main.html?pgid=7&art_artcl_id=8
Allen Vizzutti addresses Apeture Exercises in his book "High Notes For Trumpet" available on his website at http://www.Vizzutti.com
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Comeback
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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I appreciate the links, Russell.
Jim |
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Tendermeat
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Joined: 04 Dec 2017
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Widening aperture for hitting high |
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| Robert P wrote: | | Tendermeat wrote: | | So the past month I noticed that as I ascend in range my aperture has to set bigger |
How have you determined this? |
When I start on low F# and chromatically go up at around G on top of the staff is when I can feel that my aperture widens to get a bigger sound instead of thinning out, thus leading to bad playing habits that inhibits growth from mouthpiece pressure. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Widening aperture for hitting high |
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| Tendermeat wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | Tendermeat wrote: | | So the past month I noticed that as I ascend in range my aperture has to set bigger |
How have you determined this? |
When I start on low F# and chromatically go up at around G on top of the staff is when I can feel that my aperture widens |
I realize a lot of people use this kind of terminology but I'm skeptical that you can feel your aperture and can actually meaningfully gauge it. I should also point out that how you're saying it doesn't make sense - you talk about your aperture "thinning out". The aperture is the gap that occurs between the lips when you play. The aperture is empty space, it doesn't "thin out".
Saying you set your aperture bigger ignores the reality that there's 0 aperture before you initiate a note. The aperture isn't created until you expel air between the lips. When you say it thins out, you're actually referring to a sensation your perceive regarding the involved tissue. You might feel a number of sensations - pressure, a general sense of your oral cavity, gap between the teeth, tension of the various lip & facial muscles.
Use a visualizer and closely watch the junction of your lips. The aperture is bigger for the low notes and closes as you go higher - it also gets larger at a given pitch the louder you play - which requires the tension across the tissue to change to support the louder buzz - i.e. increased movement of the tissue - at a given pitch. To say you set your aperture bigger/wider for high notes doesn't match the reality of what happens. You're adjusting some sensation of tension or pressure of the involved tissue but you're not directly setting the aperture per se.
Aperture is a byproduct. Talking about controlling the aperture is like a runner saying they control the pressure of their feet against the ground or someone doing bench press saying they control the pressure of their hands against the bar. Yes, there's changes that occur at these points but that's not what you consciously, directly control. What you adjust are the conditions under which the aperture occurs.
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Tendermeat
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Joined: 04 Dec 2017
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Widening aperture for hitting high |
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| Robert P wrote: | | Tendermeat wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | Tendermeat wrote: | | So the past month I noticed that as I ascend in range my aperture has to set bigger |
How have you determined this? |
When I start on low F# and chromatically go up at around G on top of the staff is when I can feel that my aperture widens |
I realize a lot of people use this kind of terminology but I'm skeptical that you can feel your aperture and can actually meaningfully gauge it. I should also point out that how you're saying it doesn't make sense - you talk about your aperture "thinning out". The aperture is the gap that occurs between the lips when you play. The aperture is empty space, it doesn't "thin out". |
Woops I didn't clarify that. By thinning out I mean my high notes if I don't set a bigger aperture. I basically set a bigger aperture and use more pressure so I can have a bigger sound and player higher, but it is limiting in range/endurance. That's why i'm asking here for advice on how I should work to combat that. |
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Tendermeat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| I just realized another thing too lol. I play like Chris LaBarbera's horn angle and I'm downstream. Not sure what the hell that mans doing but he is absolutely killing it. I top out at high c because my top lip takes so much pressure and bottom lip ends up curling under top teeth which cuts of any higher sound. |
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Tpt_Guy
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Joined: 16 Jul 2004
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Location: Sacramento, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Tendermeat wrote: | | I just realized another thing too lol. I play like Chris LaBarbera's horn angle and I'm downstream. Not sure what the hell that mans doing but he is absolutely killing it. I top out at high c because my top lip takes so much pressure and bottom lip ends up curling under top teeth which cuts of any higher sound. |
Perhaps this could be looked into. If you're effectively chewing on your lower lip, that's a problem.
You could try raising the angle of the horn relative to your face and see if it makes a difference. Do this a little at a time, nothing extreme.
You could also post this in the Reinhardt forum. There's a wealth of info available there about various embouchire types.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Widening aperture for hitting high |
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| Tendermeat wrote: | | I basically set a bigger aperture and use more pressure so I can have a bigger sound and player higher, but it is limiting in range/endurance. That's why i'm asking here for advice on how I should work to combat that. |
To clarify, I think you -think- you're "setting a bigger aperture", not only is that contrary to what actually happens when you go higher it seems clear that whatever it is you're doing is counterproductive. Your problems are related to the overall mechanics of how you're playing. Are you taking lessons?
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Widening aperture for hitting high |
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| Robert P wrote: | | Tendermeat wrote: | | I basically set a bigger aperture and use more pressure so I can have a bigger sound and player higher, but it is limiting in range/endurance. That's why i'm asking here for advice on how I should work to combat that. |
To clarify, I think you -think- you're "setting a bigger aperture", not only is that contrary to what actually happens when you go higher it seems clear that whatever it is you're doing is counterproductive. Your problems are related to the overall mechanics of how you're playing. Are you taking lessons? |
Sometimes when players aren't able to smoothly transition between the various registers they will reset the mpc when switching registers, often hidden by a breath so the player doesn't know it's happening. This could be what he is doing.
I also get the idea there may be a bit of closed vs open lip setting going on. There have been debates on TH and TM as to whether or not the lips should be touching inside the cup when one is simply in a ready-to-play position. It could simply be that he is resetting the mpc to open the aperture then using mpc pressure to squish the aperture closed.
But I agree. Lessons in person with a teacher who can actually see what he is doing is, at this point, the best bet.
Until then, Turkle's advice of mezzo-piano lip slurs and scales through all the registers would be a good idea.
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"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Can you describe as exactly as possible what you're doing to "set a bigger aperture"?
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Tendermeat wrote: | | I just realized another thing too lol. I play like Chris LaBarbera's horn angle and I'm downstream. Not sure what the hell that mans doing but he is absolutely killing it. I top out at high c because my top lip takes so much pressure and bottom lip ends up curling under top teeth which cuts of any higher sound. |
Take lessons from him. He will get your chops straightened out! |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Look at the free Mystery to Mastery program. It has some good info that may directly relate to your issues. No cost and pretty eye opening about some things.
Rod |
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Lionel
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:12 am Post subject: Re: Widening aperture for hitting high |
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| Tendermeat wrote: | | So the past month I noticed that as I ascend in range my aperture has to set bigger, therefore more pressure. I am almost 100% certain that this is what limits my range and endurance. I'm also confused as to how I would come about fixing this. I have tried to get it smaller without getting big and I just thin out. Currently using bach 3c. |
There isn't enough information here to help create a complete understanding. While you've told us what mouthpiece you play and this is helpful, we dont know,
A. What requirements in range are called for in your music?
B. How much range you would eventually like to develop?
C. What range of notes tends to tire you out? Thus affecting endurance?
D. What style of music do you play?
E. Are you a first chair player?
There might be a few other questions that if answered could be helpful. In order to evaluate your concerns that is. However all that I know of is that your tone gets weaker as you tire. Which happens to everyone. That and that you use a Bach 3C.
That last matter does tell me much however. As while I'm certain that there are many trumpet players who are well served by the 3C I would guess that you probably aren't one of them. Again however, you will find many remarkable pros who prefer this piece.. However there is a huge distinction between them and yourself.
The powerful professional who prefers the 3C is probably someone who could achieve some pretty darned good results on it without even practicing much. If you're not from among that crowd? I would say, as the Apple logo goes,
"Think different".
If you would like to hear of more on the above? Feel free to contact me via private message.
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improver
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| I think it's imperative to not shut down the aperture when playing into the upper register. You have to keep it open. As important increased and open oral andbtgroat cavity. |
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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"More than 50 years ago a man by the name of Jaroslav Cimera, who was at the time considered to be " The Dean of All Brass Teachers " in the Chicago area, was teaching a method for upper register development that produced great results. It is a remedial method that will overcome the biggest obstacle trumpeters face in developing the upper register. What obstacle ? Using too large an aperture for playing in the upper register. This method is designed to develop the smaller aperture needed for upper register playing, while at the same time giving you " aperture control " that will allow you to play any note on the horn at will. The method uses very soft playing and decrescendo as you ascend, until the top note is played in just a " whisper ".
Remember : This is a remedial routine. It does not replace your normal manner of practicing the upper register.
If practiced properly, here is what the method can do for you:
1. Increase your range dramatically and immediately.
2. Build the strongest embouchure you can imagine, thus increasing endurance.
3. Reduce the amount of " pressure " you are now using, which will save the lip.
4. Give you the " feel " for any note on the horn...you will be able to " pick off " any note at even the softest dynamic level.
5. Develop the proper size " aperture " for high note playing, while allowing you to move throughout the entire range of the instrument without using an " embouchure shift ".
William B. Knevitt
1995
https://qpress.ca/product/knevitt-cimera-method-developing-upper-register-trumpet/
There's an accompanying audio file available, " Knevitt-Cimera-method-developing-upper-register-trumpet
by Bill Knevitt. Please email bob_latorre@hotmail.com for more details
https://www.latorremusic.com/
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https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music
Last edited by solo soprano on Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:23 am; edited 2 times in total |
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improver
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't like that concept. I think a player must be relaxed to play in the upper register. The aperture shouldn't change at all, if aperture means opening in the lips where the air passes through. I play from pedal C to G above high C and change nothing but the compression of air, Nobody is talking about " big" but open. I think Bsbby Shew holds to the concept I'm talking about. Also keeping the moral cavity and throat with relaxed open feel. Temperature shouldn't change. |
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