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Tnsamhooker
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 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:34 am Post subject: The barrier between high Eb and high E |
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I will be a senior this year in high school and I will be leading my section ad playing 1st trumpet and I need to play high. My band camp starts in about 2 weeks if anyone has any ideas that can work that fast...
Anyway so I've been improving range since freshman year and a couple of years ago (sophomore year) I went from a high C to a high Eb. But ever since then even now (which is 2 years later) I can only sometimes hit E when I'm warming up or when I first start playing.
It seems that there is a barrier between high Eb and high E.
If and none has ideas on how to break that barrive I'd greatly appreciate it!!
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Brad361
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:44 am Post subject: |
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I have not heard of a “break” between Eb and F, but of course different people experience different challenges. The break between G (4 ledger lines) and A seems to be a fairly common problem though.
But as far as increasing your range “ fast”, as in two weeks, I don’t think that’s especially feasible. Which brings to mind the question, do you have a private teacher? If not, why? A qualified teacher can be a tremendous help, much more so than asking questions on a forum. Which, by the way, is NOT intended to discourage you from frequenting Trumpet Herald, there is a lot of good (mixed in with some not so good) information here.
Brad
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Tnsamhooker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Brad! I'll keep that in mind! The thing is that everyday when I'm warming up with scales I can easily hit high D and high Eb but high E is just air (although some days I can break through and hit it pretty strong but it's kinda like 50-50 chances
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deleted_user_680e93b
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| Tnsamhooker wrote: | | Thank you Brad! I'll keep that in mind! The thing is that everyday when I'm warming up with scales I can easily hit high D and high Eb but high E is just air (although some days I can break through and hit it pretty strong but it's kinda like 50-50 chances |
Sounds like the all too familiar open aperture then lots of pressure trick at work here. But Brad is correct, 2 weeks won't do it. Find a teacher if you can that knows a little about playing in the upper register. This will be the shortest return on a good investment. You may be able to work this out yourself but you may have to change your thought process. Lets face it, if your stuck at Eb then your not doing something correctly, because as you know the trumpet can play higher than that, so to just keep practicing what your currently doing will not help obviously. Keep an open mind and find a teacher that can play high.
Best of luck
tom |
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Tnsamhooker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Thank you KBELL!! I talked to one teacher and she said to keep practicing scales and it will eventually get up there
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deleted_user_680e93b
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| Tnsamhooker wrote: | | Thank you KBELL!! I talked to one teacher and she said to keep practicing scales and it will eventually get up there |
It will but you need to do things correctly in order to get it to happen.
I like the bill adam approach to playing. check out that forum. Starts with the leadpipe, There is a "so Called" routine that helped me. mostly the long tone approach which starts at G and goes in opposite directions in half steps and the ascending scale exercise which is similar, its at least a place to start. Check Out Matt Anklan's website, he's an adam student and a TH member and has lots of info on his website.
Btw, Can your teacher play higher than Eb ?
just wondering.
Tom |
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Pops
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:24 am Post subject: |
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OK Sam how many High Ebs do you play every day?
100?
20?
5?
We build range by playing up there. Fewer than 20 a day and you are not going to ever in 100 years not ever getting to the next note.
But at 100 a day you do get there.
We have to be ready physically and mentally and getting the knack or feel of the note requires a lot of repetition.
You just need to play more high notes every day.
Go from 10 to 12 to 15 to 20 to 25...
Sometimes it takes week to feel like we can add more in number.
To really own high notes you should play 400 notes a day above High C.
I have students that play professionally that play 1200 -1500 notes a day above the G above High C and 2000+ notes a day above the High C.
My best guess is that you are just playing way too few high notes to progress.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:37 am Post subject: Re: The barrier between high Eb and high E |
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| Tnsamhooker wrote: | I will be a senior this year in high school and I will be leading my section ad playing 1st trumpet and I need to play high. My band camp starts in about 2 weeks if anyone has any ideas that can work that fast...
Anyway so I've been improving range since freshman year and a couple of years ago (sophomore year) I went from a high C to a high Eb. But ever since then even now (which is 2 years later) I can only sometimes hit E when I'm warming up or when I first start playing.
It seems that there is a barrier between high Eb and high E.
If and none has ideas on how to break that barrive I'd greatly appreciate it!! |
It's not a "barrier". What many also describe as a "break" that occurs somewhere up high is actually just the place in your range where you are blowing as hard as you can and can't generate any more air pressure. In your case, you have the air power to reach a strong High Eb but you don't have the strength to play a full-power High E.
I always find it kind of funny how people think this "break" occurs at a certain spot (some say at the F above High C, some say at the G above High C, some say it's the F#, others say it's at a D, etc.) Then they seem perplexed that the spot is different for different people. The spot is related directly to the player's ability to generate air pressure (assuming he or she is using tongue arch properly - and the fact that you can play up to Eb proves you've got the tongue arch part of the equation working fine).
Most players can play notes above their highest full-power note, but the volume and consistency rapidly diminish.
The Part One Pedal Note studies throughout Claude Gordon's book Systematic Approach to Daily Practice for Trumpet will build up tremendous air power (the ability to blow hard and generate air pressure) over time if practiced properly, holding the last notes of each exercise as long as possible with an attempted crescendo as one runs out of air to really give the blowing muscles a good workout. And the Part Two high note exercises in the book also build the needed strength while helping the player gain the feel or knack of the upper register.
Spending 15 to 20 minutes a day practicing flexibility exercises and also working your way through Clarke's Technical Studies book will help build range, too.
If you were to start properly practicing the needed exercises every day, you might be able to add a half step to your range in just two weeks. But don't be impatient and expect some miracle breakthrough to happen. That's not how it works. That would be like the guy who can bench press 120 lbs. thinking he's going to work out for a few weeks and then be able to bench press 200 lbs.
When I was your age I struggled to play above a High C. Then I learned about Claude Gordon, bought his books and used them, and eventually studied with him personally for many years. At one point I developed my practice register to the G above Double High C. But more importantly, practicing what and how he taught me to practice led to a wonderful career as a full time professional trumpet player. If you want my help it's available.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
https://www.purtle.com/how-i-became-a-student-of-claude-gordon-by-john-mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
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Tnsamhooker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Thanks so much Pops and John Mohan!! Hey John where are these books and how much are they? Also is there anything good in the Arban's book?
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Tnsamhooker wrote: | | Thanks so much Pops and John Mohan!! Hey John where are these books and how much are they? Also is there anything good in the Arban's book? |
Happy to be of help. If you didn't already, you ought to click on that URL I listed under my name in my previous post and read the article I wrote. I think you'll find my story starts out very similar to yours back in the day.
All the books you need can be found on amazon. Here are a few:
https://www.amazon.com/O4702-Systematic-Approach-Practice-Trumpet/dp/0825832888
https://www.amazon.com/27-Groups-Exercises-Earl-Irons/dp/1581060572/
https://www.amazon.com/Technical-Studies-Cornet-English-German/dp/0825801583
Systematic Approach actually assigns material out of several different books, including the Arban book (a book which every trumpet player should have). It's organized into 52 lessons. The only thing is, the lessons build up a little too quickly in intensity for most players, so if you choose to do the book exactly as written, you should stay on each Lesson for two weeks (instead of just one as the book instructs).
Claude wrote that book early in his teaching career and as he taught and experiments on his students (we were guinea pigs), he modified how he taught over the years. By the time I started studying with him in 1979 he started most students on a routine that included material from Systematic Approach, the Irons book, the Clarke book, and another of his books called Daily Trumpet Routines.
I think given your currently level of playing, a good starter routine for you would be to do:
1) Systematic Approach Lesson 2 Part 1 Follow the instructions in the book and be sure to hold each note as long as possible and longer, with an attempted crescendo as you run out of air. Rest as long as you played between each exercise.
Rest 5 minutes
2) Systematic Approach Lesson 2 Part 2 Note that these arpeggios are tongued (KTM), not slurred. And only a short 3 to 4 count hold on the top notes (with a bit of a crescendo). Play in a nice, full volume, but go easy on the lower notes and step on the gas for the higher notes. These “Part 2” exercises are not about brute force – they are about finding the “feel” or “knack” of the upper register. Remember – three (or less) attempts at the highest one you can play, and you are done. Rest at least as long as you played between each exercise.
3) Systematic Approach, Lesson 3 Part 3 to relax lips. Play 3 times.
Rest at least 1 hour before continuing!
A) "Twenty-Seven Groups of Exercises" by Earl D. Irons: Groups 5 through 9. Play the last line of Group 7 four times, resting between each time, and start the line in the open position (not 2nd valve as it is written - it is only written that way because there wasn't room on the page for another measure). Rest between each finger position as long as you played on the previous finger position.
Rest at least 30 minutes.
B) Clarke Technical Study #1 and Etude # 1: All Single Tongued, do one repeat on each exercise, no repeat on the Etude. Rest as long as you played between each exercise.
If you don't take lessons from me or another former Gordon student, you will need to read all the instructions in the books VERY carefully in order to practice the material correctly. One other good book to buy is the text book (just 35 pages) Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing.
https://www.amazon.com/O5145-Brass-Playing-Harder-Breathing/dp/0825828708
Every ambitious brass player should have that book.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
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Tnsamhooker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Mr. Mohan so much!!! I'll definitely look into those books!
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INTJ
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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You can also take Skype lessons from Pops or John. I would do that before buying any books.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Trying to put pressure on yourself to have range by a deadline is a bad idea and is most likely setting yourself up for failure. If you have aspirations to be a serious player, your focus should be how you can best improve. If someone else can cut the part, you might be better off letting them have it to take some of the pressure off you and focus on correcting your issues. You can practice banging out high and loud to your heart's content at home or wherever. If you do develop a screaming upper register you can always challenge to get the chair back, or just demonstrate you've got the chops in some other way. You don't want to resort to desperation tactics to try to play outside of your range. A really good band director wouldn't let you.
Eb to E sounds like an odd place to have a sticking point - I would generally assume if an Eb comes out big the E is going to be there, but obviously it's something you're dealing with. For myself, after many years of struggle, when I got to where Eb would come out pretty strong, I basically had a G as well. My sticking point where things get iffy is above Ab, which I think is more common.
However if once upon a time someone had told me that G's and Ab's would be no big deal for me, and that dub C's would start to make regular appearances I wouldn't have believed them. You have an Eb you can depend on? When I was in high school I would have been ecstatic to have a dependable Eb.
What's made the difference for me has been a few things - I brought my placement more to the center, and made a change to my upper central incisors, filing them down even with the adjacent lateral incisors (not recommending this, just relating what I did - do something similar at your own risk) and then - being very focused on the mechanics of what I'm doing. Without seeing you play there's no way to know if there's some obvious dysfunctionality, but I can tell you that a subtle change in the focus of how you use your chops - and by this I mean the totality of what you're doing - can make a difference. You need to find out what it feels like to do what has to happen to make those higher notes come out. One general tip I can impart is that the tension of the lips when I set isn't the same as when I play. I tense the lips a particular way to get the mp seated then the mp area is basically relaxed and all the structures around the mp that have to be focused a particular way. This is a very approximate description.
P.S. - there's a lot you should be working on besides just high and loud. Let's see how solid you really have that Eb. Can you play an Eb scale from low (below the staff) G up the Eb without resetting and back down again, full and clean both tongued and slurred? How about arpeggiating in the key of Eb from the low G to the Eb and back down?
The lessons are a good idea.
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Denny Schreffler
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Pops wrote: | OK Sam how many High Ebs do you play every day?
...
You just need to play more high notes every day.
...
To really own high notes you should play 400 notes a day above High C.
...
My best guess is that you are just playing way too few high notes to progress. |
1. I was going to suggest the same, which, of course, I got from Pops in the first place.
2. Try shimming your (very clean) mpc out a bit. See if it makes things better, worse, or no change.
http://www.bobreeves.com/products/papertrick.htm
3. There are things that can be done with the tongue, mouth, lips, throat, and air that would be best dealt with by a teacher who is successful in these areas, but here's something to try without making any fundamental changes in the way that you're currently playing. As part of your 400 notes -- very softly, and decrescendo slightly as you ascend -- harmonically slur B-C#-D# (2--2--2) up and down eight or nine times -- softly. If that feels solid and 100%, do the same on C -- D -- E. Very softly. [If 2/2/2 doesn't feel easy, start on 1/1/1, B♭-C-D, rest a few minutes, then do the 2-series, rest a few minutes, then do the open series]
Make the notes as small (focused ... concentrated) as they need to be.
Don't be surprised if the E speaks as easily as the E♭.
If C/D/E feels solid and 100%, do the same for D/E/F.
Softly, smoothly, sweetly. This is for you starting to come to terms with new notes not having to scream over a band.
Studying with the right Adam or Gordon teacher would be great in the long haul but might not add a note or two within your time frame.
However, it's likely that a Skype session with Pops could provide a technique or two that would break thru your ceiling.
-Denny |
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gstump
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:58 am Post subject: |
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I suggest extending Clark Second Study. You can get a trampoline effect by playing them up there. Try not to get too loud as you go up in keys. Rest every couple keys.
Getting a running start to that E from Eb usually works. Play around with false fingerings. Think of the phrase as a long tone rather than single notes.
You can do it!!!!!
Gordon Stump
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bach_again
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:45 am Post subject: |
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It’s about coordination and technique, not power and strength. Eb E F are all easy notes, if coordinated. Very hard if brute force, strength and bravura are your resources. Trust me, I was that guy.
Gordon, Denny and Pops all on the money.
I can’t emphasise enough to proceed SOFTLY.
Octave slurs.
Clarke’s.
Minear routine pp.
Avoid pedal tones AT ALL COSTS, potentially forever, or until
a) you have a grasp of the upper register
AND
b) you do them with a teacher of the Laurie Frink school
Pedal tones are not a cure all. They can do tremendous damage. They can help too, but you must practice them perfectly to do so and no book will help you there.
No tricks work, only thoughtful consistent practice.
Take lessons with someone known to teach chops and range well. I can vouch for:
Roger Ingram
Bryan Davis
Chris LaBarbera
Rich Willey
Mike Smith
Mike Sailors
Ryan Quigley
I’m sure there’s many many more who can and do, but only suggesting those whom I’ve taken a lesson with.
Mike
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| bach_again wrote: | | It’s about coordination and technique, not power and strength. |
I think it's about all of the above actually.
According to a research study (Blowing pressure, power, and spectrum in trumpet playing, N. H. Fletchera and A. Tarnopolsky, School of Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering, Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra 2600, Australia):
| Quote: | | Physiological measurements by Fiz et al.6 on the maximum expiratory pressure that can be achieved by trumpet players—not while playing the trumpet, or indeed while actually expelling air—yielded a value of 23 (+ or - 5) KPa, in confirmation of the general level of this result, while they found that similarly fit young men who did not play any brass instrument were able to achieve expiratory pressures of only 19 (+ or - 1) KPa. Presumably muscle training accounts for this difference. |
For reference, 24 KPa of air pressure is the amount of air pressure a trumpet player generates when he plays a High D at a volume of 112 dB according to the study. (A professional orchestra player was the test subject).
The same study concluded that each octave climb on a brass instrument requires an approximate doubling of the supplied air pressure. Arnold Jacobs' researched reached the same conclusion. Any trumpet player knows that when they are playing the highest note they can play at full volume, they are blowing as hard as they can.
That said, I did not mean to understate the importance of the coordination and technique side of the equation. We need to develop the coordination (the "feel" or "knack" of it) to successfully play the extreme upper register. But note that it is impossible to develop the feel of how to do something one does not yet have the physical strength to do. And I think that based on the fact that the OP here stated he can reach a good Eb, which requires proper tongue arch coordination to reach (most who don't use tongue arch correctly top out at about a High C), I think he's got the feel of the notes in the vicinity of the E and the F, and just needs to develop a bit more strength.
On a side subject Michael, someday I hope to do a wide-reaching study of trumpet players, how high they can play, and how much thoracic air pressure they can generate. I am interested to find out if there are players who can play into the double C range that do not have unusually strong blowing muscles. Given your great upper range, you would definitely be one of the players I'd like to have participate in such a study.
Lastly, regarding what you wrote about the perils of "brute force", I whole-heartily agree with you. In fact, for many years now, the following sentence appears in every Lesson Plan I have written for my students who are doing the Systematic Approach upper range (Part Two) exercises:
| Quote: | | These “Part 2” exercises are not about brute force – they are about finding the “feel” or “knack” of the upper register. |
Best wishes,
John Mohan
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| bach_again wrote: | Very hard if brute force, strength and bravura are your resources.
Mike |
It's about establishing a sensitive feel for the upper register. While working for a big sound in the upper register do not use "brute force" but instead think "EEE" and draw the lips toward the mouthpiece.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Tnsamhooker wrote: | | Thank you Mr. Mohan so much!!! I'll definitely look into those books! |
You're most welcome! |
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bach_again
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | bach_again wrote: | | It’s about coordination and technique, not power and strength. |
I think it's about all of the above actually. |
I'd class technique as being able to co-ordinate your efforts into producing notes. Essentially we are saying the same thing, save for my caution not to solely focus on power and strength. Written on the iPad, and quickly, so just some clarification was in order - we agree here, I presume!
| John Mohan wrote: | | Research by Jacobs... |
Research that takes into consideration only air pressure neglects embouchure tension (or compression if you want to call it that) and the entire playing system. I have seen an artificial embouchure-based machine coupled to a brass instrument demonstrate a doubling of octaves was possible by doubling lip tension or doubling air pressure. It isn't as simple as blow twice as hard for twice as high. If that helps achieve the goals, then great, visualise that; that's not what I experience, or my (lack-of) intelligence suggests is true - there's too many factors.
I would love to read more studies, as I have heard from several sources that the results from the Jacobs study were biased in favour of his abstract. IE. he got the results he wanted. I'm not saying I believe this to be true, and I can't verify either source, so take this as hear-say, but it is far from implausible. I must go and read that paper again, as it has been several years.
Here's one for you to check out!
https://www.rit.edu/cla/finearts/sites/rit.edu.cla.finearts/files/images/moreair.pdf
| John Mohan wrote: |
That said, I did not mean to understate the importance of the coordination and technique side of the equation. We need to develop the coordination (the "feel" or "knack" of it) to successfully play the extreme upper register. But note that it is impossible to develop the feel of how to do something one does not yet have the physical strength to do. And I think that based on the fact that the OP here stated he can reach a good Eb, which requires proper tongue arch coordination to reach (most who don't use tongue arch correctly top out at about a High C), I think he's got the feel of the notes in the vicinity of the E and the F, and just needs to develop a bit more strength. |
I agree with 90% of that. I do have to say that the high Eb player is usually a product of:
Over blowing (esp bottom register)
Loose form-less embouchure & bad set-up
"flabby" bottom lip
Too much tension (of all sorts)
Too much pressure/unequal pressure
All of the above could fall under the gross term of playing "spread"
| John Mohan wrote: |
On a side subject Michael, someday I hope to do a wide-reaching study of trumpet players, how high they can play, and how much thoracic air pressure they can generate. I am interested to find out if there are players who can play into the double C range that do not have unusually strong blowing muscles. Given your great upper range, you would definitely be one of the players I'd like to have participate in such a study. |
Thanks for the kind words! I'd love to help if at all possible - here in Ireland. Let me know how/if I can help because it intrigues that left-brained part of me.
It wouldn't be surprising to find out that a double C was significantly more air pressure than a high C, but in the double register you are essentially over-blowing the instrument, as well defined harmonic slots naturally sort-of disappear at G over high C. I believe the tpt becomes more like a megaphone at this point.
I'm also a big dude, 6'1" and 260lbs. I naturally will be able to create more air pressure than someone half my size, of similar physical conditioning (IE none), but I feel like I can create far too much pressure than is useful and finding that sweet spot where it works requires a lot of self-control. I could see, easily, someone having the opposite problem but I have encountered enough young students and clips of young players who defy this logic. Natalie Dungey is a good example. You could argue the volume wasn't there, but given time I think it would be. There's a bunch of shorter/smaller trumpeters playing the absolute snot out of lead books - again sort of defying the large-framed advantage logic. I truly believe the knack is such a large part.
On my bad playing days I can almost certainly correlate over-blowing to being 80+% of my problem.
| John Mohan wrote: |
Lastly, regarding what you wrote about the perils of "brute force", I whole-heartily agree with you. In fact, for many years now, the following sentence appears in every Lesson Plan I have written for my students who are doing the Systematic Approach upper range (Part Two) exercises:
| Quote: | | These “Part 2” exercises are not about brute force – they are about finding the “feel” or “knack” of the upper register. |
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Well that sounds like very good, and balanced advice, John!
| John Mohan wrote: |
Best wishes,
John Mohan |
Nice to have a considerate discussion, John. I know we don't see eye to eye on everything, but it was nice not to butt heads over pedal tones or semantics.
Chat soon, and if you ever want me to help you and your test I would be more than grateful to. I wouldn't mind eyeballing your methodology too.
Best,
Mike
_________________
Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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