Embouchure vs Equipment

[tptguy]

Author
tptguy
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2002-04-25 09:53
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Recently, a number of people have asked me to repost this thread of mine from the old forum. Hope some find it helpful or provocative!
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At first, it seems surprising that different players can have so many differing opinions about what equipment plays well, let alone best. But, I think that there are some identifiable reasons that large discrepancies exist.

First, the majority of trumpeters do not have developed embouchures. Most of us are still in the stage of building and experimenting. Though it’s not a good idea to put too much trust in the feel or response of an undeveloped embouchure, we all still do it. Certainly, we are all entitled to our opinions even those arrived at while still climbing the slippery slope.

Much less discussed are differences in preference based on the various embouchures that are today in popular use. It is my belief that certain equipment is designed, and works best, depending on what kind of embouchure a player is using. The following are some observations that I use as a jumping off point. Perhaps some will find this approach helpful.

The most common embouchure today is this: put the horn up, purse the lips, and blow. Listen for a good sound and adjust accordingly. Invariably, this embouchure tightens and pulls at the corners of the lips in order to stretch the lips to ascend. This causes a flattening and thinning of the lips. This system works best with a big mouthpiece in order to try and keep more lip in the mouthpiece. And, the big mouthpiece works better with a smaller/tighter horn in order to keep from working too hard. In this system, only a really marvelously developed player can work well with both a real big mouthpiece and a really big horn without exhausting himself. Invariably, endurance and upper range are struggles. But by limiting range and resting often, some players can do well with this system and this kind of equipment. Many players that try this embouchure with both a large horn and a large mouthpiece end up pulling even more at the corners. They start to run sharp on every pitch. A mouthpiece with a large throat and/or open backbore will exaggerate the problem even more. And as the player gets more and more tired he or she has to keep pulling out the tuning slide to compensate. This is an obvious sign that embouchure and equipment don’t match. But, it’s an easy one for a teacher to spot.


Maggio’s pucker system is designed specifically to limit the bad effects of pulling at the corners. Much more lip remains forward to fill the mouthpiece. Therefore, Maggio players can successful use smaller diameter mouthpieces which aid range and endurance and add more desired brilliancy to the sound. But, the Maggio system trains the lips to stay well forward during the blow. Hence, they will actually fall into the cup as volume and range increase. So, the Maggio system requires a deeper cup. Otherwise, the lips will bottom out and shut off vibration. This combination of smaller diameter with deeper cup allows the use of a bigger trumpet (amplifier) than the traditional embouchure above. But if the resistance of the horn gets too low then the lips will collapse forward too quickly. So, moderate resistance in the horn is most generally preferred.

Numerous instructors such as Reinhart, Gordon, and Colin stress using a tongue arch with syllables for pitch change, also encouraged by Maggio, but without Maggio’s heavy duty forward lip pucker. The syllables are designed to compress air before it hits the lips. So, there is less risk of lip collapse into the mouthpiece. Therefore, syllable players can do well with a shallower cup. This will add brilliance as well as improved endurance. However, the syllable system still pulls at the lips. So, a wider diameter with the shallower cup is often a good combination. A med-large horn is typically a good balance with such mouthpieces for an advanced syllable devotee. But, a developing syllable player generally does better on a horn with more resistance – either in the leadpipe or bore, or both.

Callet’s Superchops system is designed to stop the forward collapse of the lips into the cup as well as stop any thinning of the lips. So, more lip remains in the mouthpiece at all times. Plus, less air volume against the lips preserves their endurance. These players can successfully use mouthpieces with much less diameter and much less depth. This greatly aids endurance and range as well as brilliance and focus of tone. With this combination, a much bigger and/or more open horn (amplifier) can be used to great effect. Resistance is created in the mouth, so minimal resistance is needed in the horn.

If I am correct in the above then evaluating the kind of equipment that will work best for you requires that you consider the kind of embouchure that you currently use. More importantly, select your equipment for the kind of embouchure that you intend to develop. Otherwise, your equipment may well be beating you over the head.

I’m always looking for helpful feedback. Please respond with your thoughts or personal experience. Best regards, Kyle


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Don Herman
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 1749
From: Monument, CO, USA
Posted: 2002-04-25 10:16
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Kyle,

In your next to last paragraph you state that, in SC, "resistance is created in the mouth". Could you please clarify that statement a bit further for dummies like me who don't quite get all the meaning? (There's a great title -- SC for Dummies! Sign me up... )

Thanks! - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

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jgadvert
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2002
Posts: 568
From: Long Island, NY
Posted: 2002-04-25 11:40
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Unless you have the worst technique in the world, I think a piece of equipment like a Wild Thing will bump you up a notch.

I've proven that to myself.

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Lee Adams
Superchops Forum Moderator

Joined: Nov 07, 2001
Posts: 282
From: Atlanta, Ga
Posted: 2002-04-26 00:18
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Quote:
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On 2002-04-25 10:16, Don Herman wrote:
Kyle,

In your next to last paragraph you state that, in SC, "resistance is created in the mouth". Could you please clarify that statement a bit further for dummies like me who don't quite get all the meaning? (There's a great title -- SC for Dummies! Sign me up... )

Thanks! - Don



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Kyle thanks for reposting this from the old forum!

Not speaking on Kyles behalf but knowing that Kyle has also in the past made an analogy that SC is a resistance embouchure. I think that what he means here is the lips and possibly including the tongue are helping in creating the resistance with or "in" the mouth including the lips which requires less air while playing, and mouthpiece designs like he mentions aids in keeping control of the resistance while maintaining a focused sound.

As always

Lee Adams




[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2003-10-29 16:17 ]

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Don Herman
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 1749
From: Monument, CO, USA
Posted: 2002-04-27 00:39
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So, in SC is the oral cavity kept smaller to add resistance? And, does a small mouthpiece (with it's extra resistance/backpressure) then help keep lips relaxed? I first thought a small mpc worked with SC to keep the lips together, but now wonder if it helps keep them relaxed and together. If the lips are together, but as relaxed as possible (in the center, yes?), then the backpressure from the mpc would help compress them to get sound out. Interesting...

Thanks, Lee! - Don (the Southern one!)
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

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tptguy
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2002-04-27 10:30
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Don, Similar to what Lee is pointing out, SC aims to firmly resist as well as compress the air before it hits the lips. To do this, current SC uses the tongue hugely more than the older technique, but the goals are the same.

The smaller mouthpieces are designed to prevent collapse of the lips into the mouthpiece as the air hits them. Hope that clarifies more than confuses. Let me know. Best regards, Kyle

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Don Herman
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 1749
From: Monument, CO, USA
Posted: 2002-04-27 23:45
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OK, Kyle, we're close, I think... When you say the smaller mpc is to prevent the lips from collapsing into the mouthpiece, do you mean to hold the corners at the rim, or using the backpressure from a shallow cup to prevent the middle section from blowing outwards, or both? Sorry to be so dense -- I'm only getting a bit...err... pedantic (avoiding the "a" word!) here because I think this may help some of us in understanding exactly how the lips work (and, work with the mpc) in SC.

Thank you! - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

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tptguy
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2002-04-28 00:43
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According to Jerry, and my experience as well, the kiss of death is the collapse of the lips forward. That signals the end of endurance. In order to prevent this, most of us pull back on the corners, "smile". But, this results in thin center lips that can't resist the pressure of sustained or upper register playing. A large diameter rim makes it much more likely that the lips will get flappy and collapse so the player is encouraged to pull and stretch. A smaller piece encourages the player to "grip" the lips and the mouthpiece without pull or stretch. A deeper cup hides the collapse longer. But, a shallower cup aids the grip. A Callet DT-10 is a great test of a SC embouchure; you can't cheat with a DT-10.
Any collapse shows up in a hurry!

The next step is to make sure the airstream is small and compressed ("resisted") before it hits the lips. Then, it won't drive the lips forward.

Hope that helps some. Don, let me know what I've made more cloudy. Best regards, Kyle

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tptguy
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2002-04-28 00:49
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JG,

<<<Unless you have the worst technique in the world, I think a piece of equipment like a Wild Thing will bump you up a notch. >>>

I think you've touched upon the central point. If the WT has allowed you to make a leap in your playing, it's probably a good indication that it's better suited to the kind of embouchure you are using. That's a good thing, of course.

Then again, there are those that find the WT, and other similar large bore horns, to be a decided step backwards. They may gravitate to a Yammie Shew or some such. Or, the new equipment may encourage them to adjust their embouchure. Either approach, at least in the short term, can be successful. Is that your experience? Best regards, Kyle


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jgadvert
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2002
Posts: 568
From: Long Island, NY
Posted: 2002-04-28 16:53
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tptguy:

Whatever works for your style/technique of playing(ie.small/large bore, small/large mpc, whatever!), will bump you up.

Yeah, in smaller bore talk, a vintage Martin Committee for example would make most folks sound better vs. a lesser horn.

Aint it a beautiful thing(when you work so hard to practice to get better) when you can improve just by playing better equipment?

BTW. My little bump in playing quality occured by purchasing a Callet Jazz and Northern Brass mpc( a rare but deserving plug, plug, plug, ha ha!)

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tptguy
Heavyweight Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 556
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: 2002-04-28 19:02
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JG,

<<<Whatever works for your style/technique of playing(ie.small/large bore, small/large mpc, whatever!), will bump you up. >>>

Yes, I think we are in agreement. Of course, as stated here, it's pretty much a tautology. But I'm also trying to make the point that this is the root of so many controversies. i.e. this is why so much different stuff receives such discrepant reviews. Different strokes, as we say.


<<<My little bump in playing quality occured by purchasing a Callet Jazz and Northern Brass mpc( a rare but deserving plug, plug, plug, ha ha!) >>>

I like your shameless plug! I think that the Callet Jazz is a particularly shining example of a horn that works exceptionally well for many varied embouchures. The small conical entry widening to the .470 exit bore really seems to adjust to most any style. That's a horn that really will make nearly anyone a better player, I think. The NB mouthpieces, on the other hand, is specifically designed to be Superchops friendly. So, it's probably not be as suited to other chops-styles. Bruce Lee has other solutions for those types. The Superchops trumpet, also, is much more SC specific, in my experience. Probably good stuff for more testing. Best regards, Kyle

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olddawg
New Member

Joined: May 09, 2002
Posts: 1 Posted: 2002-05-09 23:10
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I'm a recovering amateur with my share of old habits. I don't have enough practice time to develop strong chops, so I'm looking for the best equipment as an aid. I play mostly brass quintet and occasional weddings.

Any clues on the tradeoff between bore size, mouthpiece size, and range/endurance are welcome. In particular, would moving from a larger bore (.463) to a light medium bore likely help? I've moved from a Bach 3C to a Warburton 5M cup (5 backbore) which increased range. I currently use a Yamaha 739T (.463) and did have a Schilke 5B. I'm considering a Yamaha 6310Z, 736 or similar horn. Clues??
Thanks, Ed

[Bruce Lee]

It's the combination of the player, the mouthpiece, and the horn that makes the difference. When any one of those aspects changes, the others must be adjusted appropriately. An embouchure change can certainly facilitate the need to change mouthpieces, and even your trumpet.

With the SC/TCE/BE, (or, other efficient embouchure types) because we are providing the right balance of "lip compression", and "air compression", we often tend to choose a smaller mouthpiece, due to the improved focus that we have achieved. Therefore, in choosing a trumpet, because of the efficiency that we have achieved with the mouthpiece, we often crave a more free-blowing horn.

The "feel", or "blow resistance", that each of us requires is very individualized. WE are the variable, and we need to find the right combination of mouthpiece and horn, in order to play the type(s) of music that we perform most often. When that is achieved, we are better able to maintain the proper "balance" of lip compression, and air compression needed to perform.

Where we need to exercise caution, is in making certain that our choices allow us to accomplish the goal of producing the sound that we hear in our head, without "chasing the sound". When the combination is right, our sound is both resonant, and efficient. Some horns will allow us to achieve a big sound, but they will also require more energy from the player. So, remember to keep yourself in the equation, as to whether a particular trumpet will work for your playing situations.

The Callet "Jazz", or "Stratosphere" would allow the player to achieve great results. If you are accustomed to a ML bore trumpet, the "Stratosphere" is a good choice. If you find that you are often "limited" by the horn, and you are consistently over-blowing the horn, the larger "Jazz" is a better choice. As a dealer of other "superhorns", in addition to Callet trumpets, I can recommend an Eclipse, or Lawler trumpet model that will allow the individual to accomplish these goals.

I hope that this helps!

Best always,
Bruce
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