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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Don Herman rev2 wrote: | tongue like you are speaking, |
Can you clarify this? I don't tongue in a trumpet articulation way when I speak. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Don Herman rev2 wrote: | tongue like you are speaking, |
Can you clarify this? I don't tongue in a trumpet articulation way when I speak. |
I articulate differently depending upon the sound I want, but normally vary between a "t" as when I say talk (against the upper gum line) and "d" like when I say "doing" (which for me puts the tip of the tongue on the lower gum line, striking with the "top" of the tongue in sort of an anchor tonguing approach, I think). I don't really think about it. Different folk use different strokes (syllables) so find whatever works for you. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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alanjk Regular Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2008 Posts: 47
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Great suggestions and many helped. The attacks have definitely improved and it's still a work in progress. Clearly everything about playing the trumpet will ALWAYS be a work in progress javascript:emoticon('').
Much as I hate to blame my equipment because it sometimes is a copout, sometimes it IS the equipment. A GR mouthpiece, for example, previously helped a lot of articulation issues and made slotting some notes much easier. It is not quite as comfortable on my lips as my old Curry but it works much, much better. My teacher plays an Edwards horn and when I tried it I really liked it. So that set me off on possibly getting a different horn. My Bach Strad was the best I could find and afford when I bought it 12 years ago. But their quality at that time was highly vairiable. I remember trying at least 7 or 8 of them and each one sounded different and had different issues.
I finally visited the Edwards factory which is not far from where I live in WI. Their X-13 was easily the best sounding and easiest to play horn for me. After a couple of hours finding the best setup (their technician was terrific) I bought one. The GR mouthpiece works great with the Edwards. My tone sounded MUCH better and everything else instantly improved too - slotting, attacks, slurring, playing quietly, loud without frapping etc. The resonance is amazing.
My teacher came with me and had his horn with him. Aside from being a really good teacher he is an amazing musician who can make everything sing and dance. Aside -he's still studying for his PhD. Two years ago, he thought it would be a good idea to start getting the feel for auditions. When a first chair opened in a decent sized city's symphony, he signed up for the audition. The goal was to at least get past the first round. He won the chair. Anyway, while hanging out waiting for the tech to write up my order, he started doodling on his own, older model Edwards and it was beautiful. "Let's hear what you sound like on the X-13" I suggested. When he did my jaw dropped. As good as he already sounded, the tone on the X-13 is incredibly rich, a bit darker than most horns and luscious. By that evening, he had sold two of his old Bb horns (not the Edwards) and now owns an Edwards X-13 too. |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 892 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:56 am Post subject: |
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hello,
even if there are here and there good suggestions, i share Robert P's opinion, that doing exercices for years without the correct technic in adequation with your morphology (face, lips, teeth etc), will have limits. Of course these repetitions will help you to improve, but not as much as if you pay great attention to your technic.
I think Bobby Shew's Yes-No, whisper tones, ppp playing in a resonant way will help a lot IF you align also correctly your lips, and these exercices help to that a lot in return too
best |
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PC Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Apr 2002 Posts: 398 Location: Trondheim, Norway
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
2 things helped me tremendously recently:
1) softer tongue attacks. Crisp attacks are still there but one doesn’t need to hammer them as much as one would think. A soft and thick tongue does not shake the whole mouth upsetting the embouchure.
2) energise the sound, the way singers do, or actors do. No need for a lot of air, but energised or pressurised air. Really mean what you are going to play!
Actually both of these points go hand in hand: the energy feel simply guarantees an ample supply of air at the correct pressure to play the note, and the soft tongue ensures getting out of the way without shaking the sound, risking a wrong note or an ugly note.
The timing suggestions above also work great. Try even tonguing before the beat (ever so slightly), so that the sound starts where you want, not the silent attack (the attack just shapes the way the sound goes from nothing to fully fledged). This is a great help especially when playing in an ensemble. Being in time solves many problems as if by magic, such as tuning, phrasing and accuracy.
Just to unfortunately emphasise, nothing of the above is mine, I wish I had thought of this years ago...
Cheers
Pierre |
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Trumptrevol Regular Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2020 Posts: 57
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Some interesting ideas here.
The thing that fixed my attacks is first getting my breath attacks to be clean, ping, and light enough where i can control it, so practice some John Daniels special studies nr. 1 and nr. 2 at quarter note = 60. Secondly, practicing some shuebruck inital attacks grade 2, first breath attack it clean then you tongue it. but imagine yourself getting ready to breath attack the note you are going to tongue, this will result in a clean attack.i put my metronome at quarter note = 30. THen the goal is to do this daily and get the tongued attack to sound exactly like the breath attac. Also check out john daniels articulation studies, it has some great 'poo' 'doo' exercises that i do on the mouthpiece with drone at qn = 40 |
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Bethmike Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2020 Posts: 192 Location: NW of ORD
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:41 am Post subject: Clean attack |
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John Daniels "Special Studies" book is great. I don't want to hijack. Maybe I need to start a new discussion. _________________ Bach190ML43
Kanstul 1001
Bach NY7
Yamaha 631 Flugel |
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jicetp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 987
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:46 am Post subject: |
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JVL wrote: | hello,
even if there are here and there good suggestions, i share Robert P's opinion, that doing exercices for years without the correct technic in adequation with your morphology (face, lips, teeth etc), will have limits. Of course these repetitions will help you to improve, but not as much as if you pay great attention to your technic.
I think Bobby Shew's Yes-No, whisper tones, ppp playing in a resonant way will help a lot IF you align also correctly your lips, and these exercices help to that a lot in return too
best |
Somebody could explain, lead to a video of Bobby Shew Yes-No exercise , |
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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:00 am Post subject: |
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Practicing breath attacks will help.
Play some of the Arban's First Studies with a "Hoo" syllable, then a "Poo" and finally "Too".
Chris Martin and other orchestral brass musicians recommend this approach. |
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AWOL New Member
Joined: 06 Jul 2018 Posts: 2 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:03 am Post subject: |
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First post by long-time (long-long-long!) lurker.
I'll add a little to dstdenis' post on page 1 of this thread. I find Merri Franquin's "la pose du son" exercises (the complete Méthode is available in both English and French from qPress) to be absolutely invaluable.
Keep rigorous time and observe all rests; initiate the note as softly as possible; don't tolerate inaccuracy while doing this exercise. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6126 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Everything isn't quite right when you try to make your attack. Too much lip tension, not enough lip tension, wrong balance/placement of tension, wrong balance of mouthpiece pressure, something not right about the teeth opening, amount of lip intrusion past the teeth, horn angle, mouth cavity, air stream - all of which are subtly different depending on the pitch and volume. |
And impossible to manipulate _________________ Bill Bergren |
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B. Scriver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002 Posts: 1204 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Clean attack |
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alanjk wrote: | I record myself practicing to listen for issues. I am careful to take a full breath and not hold it before playing so as to avoid tension. Still, my attacks are often not very clean either tongued or not. Some of it is tension when starting out. But even as I am0 warmed up they are not what they should be. Some of this was helped when I swtiched to a GR mouthpiece but I know I can still do better.
Suggestions to correct for common issues in this area?
Exercises that may help?
Thanks
Alan |
Alan,
Give me a shout and we can set up a GR Consultation on Zoom, What's App, or Skype. We can run through the GR Playing Tests to see if this is an equipment issue or if a playing issue has to be addressed.
Thanks!
Brian Scriver
grmouthpieces@gmail.com |
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