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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:11 pm Post subject: Third valve sticks - why? |
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There are obvious answers, but I'm looking for something more subtle, maybe.
I have an L.A. Benge and in the last two years, it's had both Chemical Cleaning/Ultrasonic Cleaning and a Precision Valve Alignment by Jim Becker at Osmun's.
About a month ago, I had a professional soap-and-water type cleaning by an instrument tech. Not only that, I cleaned it yesterday with a cleaning swab and reoiled it.
I have also kept a watch on my hand position to make sure that it's not angled. If you just wiggle your fingers casually, the valves work fine.
But when I play a simple, slow-moving warm-up arpeggio the third valve periodically lingers - it doesn't snap up immediately.
Would anyone know what else to check for? This is driving me crazy. Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Vince.Green Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 148
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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A very good bet would be that the 3rd slide got ever so slightly pushed from some angle during cleaning or reassembly. Lighter horns are pretty susceptible to this. Probably best to take to a shop but if you can get it to stick down, you can apply subtle pressure in one direction or another on your 3rd slide assembly and if the valve then pops up, you know which direction it's been tweaked.The connection point can push towards the piston and cause it to hang up, very common. |
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Pete Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Try switching the valve guides around.
Pete |
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derekthor Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2012 Posts: 480 Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Wipe down the valves and insides of casings, preferably using denatured alcohol. Then, try swapping around the valves in the casings to determine if the issue is the valve or the casing. Either way, don’t try a repair unless you’re also willing to pay someone else to fix anything that could go wrong. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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I'm assuming the pistons have not been refitted and are original. My rule of thumb is to use the heaviest valve oil you can without the valves slowing down.
BerpBioOil #2 or even #3, or Hetman are my go-to weighted oils. I have many customers on these oils - they fill the gap better between piston and casing.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | I'm assuming the pistons have not been refitted and are original. My rule of thumb is to use the heaviest valve oil you can without the valves slowing down.
BerpBioOil #2 or even #3, or Hetman are my go-to weighted oils. I have many customers on these oils - they fill the gap better between piston and casing.
-Lionel |
I am one of those customers. I thought about posting that advice, but decided to not post since Jim Becker had done a precision valve alignment within the last two years. A PVA should include checking the valve clearance. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | yourbrass wrote: | I'm assuming the pistons have not been refitted and are original. My rule of thumb is to use the heaviest valve oil you can without the valves slowing down.
BerpBioOil #2 or even #3, or Hetman are my go-to weighted oils. I have many customers on these oils - they fill the gap better between piston and casing.
-Lionel |
I am one of those customers. I thought about posting that advice, but decided to not post since Jim Becker had done a precision valve alignment within the last two years. A PVA should include checking the valve clearance. |
The pistons could have decent compression and still stick with too thin an oil. I had a Burbank Benge that I rebuilt and played constantly for a couple of years. Despite the refitted valves, the second valve started hanging a bit. I switched from Berp #1 to #2; end of problem. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Nos Mo King Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 Posts: 438 Location: Cheyenne WY
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Agree with Pete...try switching valve guides..My Benge had same problem...New guides fixed it on my horn...
Best of luck
RC _________________ Russ Chapman
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 383 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Vince.Green wrote: | A very good bet would be that the 3rd slide got ever so slightly pushed from some angle during cleaning or reassembly. Lighter horns are pretty susceptible to this. Probably best to take to a shop but if you can get it to stick down, you can apply subtle pressure in one direction or another on your 3rd slide assembly and if the valve then pops up, you know which direction it's been tweaked.The connection point can push towards the piston and cause it to hang up, very common. |
This would be my approach.
More common on the second valve for a couple of reasons but can happen to any of them.
-Denny |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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The theories are going a different direction on TM. |
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Pete Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Just switch the guides around. It will take you a few minutes to see if that is the problem. Try the easiest thing first.
Pete |
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Pete Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | The theories are going a different direction on TM. |
I just saw them. They are drinking more than I am!
Pete |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Pete wrote: | Try switching the valve guides around.e |
This seems a reasonable place to start. I think I'll begin with this. Thanks for the suggestions, everyone! _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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jojocat Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2012 Posts: 948 Location: Baie St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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I would bet in Vince-green theory. Same thing happened to one of my horns and that was the problem. _________________ The least we can do is wave to each other
Martin Committee trumpet
Yamaha 6335H
Yamaha 6320
Accent 781 |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:23 am Post subject: |
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You didn't mention valve clearance yet, so I will. Take the finger button off the 3rd valve stem. Grasp the stem between two fingers and try to move the stem in the valve casing, side-to-side and back-and-forth. If you can see it move in relation fo the hole in the top cap, the piston is worn and needs to be rebuilt.
My own Benge 5X had this problem and behaved the same as you describe, only with the 1st valve. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Wouldn't some of these things have been done by Jim Becker when he gave a comprehensive overhaul and valve realignment?
How long can one expect such a process last? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:47 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Wouldn't some of these things have been done by Jim Becker when he gave a comprehensive overhaul and valve realignment?
How long can one expect such a process last? |
I don't have any experience with James Becker, so I can't comment on your situation as far as that goes. But, I can tell you that, in the case of my own Benge, the valves worked like lightning one day and the next the 1st valve gave me trouble. If someone had shown me the amount of movement in the piston prior to the valve sticking, I would have told them not to touch it!
It was like you described. No one could make the valve stick just pumping it up and down, but when I played the horn it would stick. It seemed like air from blowing pushed the piston out of alignment, or blew away the oil film enough to cause stiction.
Finally, Zig (or maybe it was Mark. I hear he is really good at rebuilding valves) rebuilt all of the valves and fit them so well that, to this day, I have not played a horn with valves that good. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Pete wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | The theories are going a different direction on TM. |
I just saw them. They are drinking more than I am!
Pete |
Yep, GUMOUT???
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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boog Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2014 Posts: 247
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:38 am Post subject: |
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I have had this problem with most of the Benges that I have owned in my life. I have had several, all bought new, from "LA's" back in the early 70's to an '87 "Eastlake" CG that I bought new, and still have. They all had intermittently sticking valves, especially the 1st and 3rd valves. I really don't know why, but the 3rd valve on most all trumpets tends to collect more "mouth junk" than the other valves, and the 1st valve gets the most use. I had to be very aware of oiling and cleanliness with all of these instruments, as well as not pressing the valves from the sides if I could help it. Strangely enough, the Benge trumpets are the only horns I have owned that had a noticeable problem with this. Maybe it is because they were lightweight horns, and had thinner metal, I don't really know.
The Eastlake CG was sold for a time to a fellow player, and he kept it for almost 10 years, and I traded him a Strad for it back, after he bugged me for a time to sell him the Strad. When I got it back, I found that he had buffed the 1st valve to eliminate sticking, and now it, unfortunately, leaks some and requires heavier oil. Dang shame, and I could strangle him for it! But, it plays well still, not as good as the LA instruments, but it is still a keeper and is useful when you need a bright, sizzling sound.
That being said, Benges are usually fine if you can put up with these quirks and keep them scruptiously clean and oiled. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, boog. Very helpful perspective. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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