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Third valve sticks - why?


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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Third valve sticks - why? Reply with quote

There are obvious answers, but I'm looking for something more subtle, maybe.

I have an L.A. Benge and in the last two years, it's had both Chemical Cleaning/Ultrasonic Cleaning and a Precision Valve Alignment by Jim Becker at Osmun's.

About a month ago, I had a professional soap-and-water type cleaning by an instrument tech. Not only that, I cleaned it yesterday with a cleaning swab and reoiled it.

I have also kept a watch on my hand position to make sure that it's not angled. If you just wiggle your fingers casually, the valves work fine.

But when I play a simple, slow-moving warm-up arpeggio the third valve periodically lingers - it doesn't snap up immediately.

Would anyone know what else to check for? This is driving me crazy. Thanks.
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Vince.Green
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very good bet would be that the 3rd slide got ever so slightly pushed from some angle during cleaning or reassembly. Lighter horns are pretty susceptible to this. Probably best to take to a shop but if you can get it to stick down, you can apply subtle pressure in one direction or another on your 3rd slide assembly and if the valve then pops up, you know which direction it's been tweaked.The connection point can push towards the piston and cause it to hang up, very common.
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Pete
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try switching the valve guides around.

Pete
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derekthor
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wipe down the valves and insides of casings, preferably using denatured alcohol. Then, try swapping around the valves in the casings to determine if the issue is the valve or the casing. Either way, don’t try a repair unless you’re also willing to pay someone else to fix anything that could go wrong.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm assuming the pistons have not been refitted and are original. My rule of thumb is to use the heaviest valve oil you can without the valves slowing down.
BerpBioOil #2 or even #3, or Hetman are my go-to weighted oils. I have many customers on these oils - they fill the gap better between piston and casing.
-Lionel
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
I'm assuming the pistons have not been refitted and are original. My rule of thumb is to use the heaviest valve oil you can without the valves slowing down.
BerpBioOil #2 or even #3, or Hetman are my go-to weighted oils. I have many customers on these oils - they fill the gap better between piston and casing.
-Lionel

I am one of those customers. I thought about posting that advice, but decided to not post since Jim Becker had done a precision valve alignment within the last two years. A PVA should include checking the valve clearance.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
I'm assuming the pistons have not been refitted and are original. My rule of thumb is to use the heaviest valve oil you can without the valves slowing down.
BerpBioOil #2 or even #3, or Hetman are my go-to weighted oils. I have many customers on these oils - they fill the gap better between piston and casing.
-Lionel

I am one of those customers. I thought about posting that advice, but decided to not post since Jim Becker had done a precision valve alignment within the last two years. A PVA should include checking the valve clearance.


The pistons could have decent compression and still stick with too thin an oil. I had a Burbank Benge that I rebuilt and played constantly for a couple of years. Despite the refitted valves, the second valve started hanging a bit. I switched from Berp #1 to #2; end of problem.
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Nos Mo King
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Pete...try switching valve guides..My Benge had same problem...New guides fixed it on my horn...

Best of luck


RC
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vince.Green wrote:
A very good bet would be that the 3rd slide got ever so slightly pushed from some angle during cleaning or reassembly. Lighter horns are pretty susceptible to this. Probably best to take to a shop but if you can get it to stick down, you can apply subtle pressure in one direction or another on your 3rd slide assembly and if the valve then pops up, you know which direction it's been tweaked.The connection point can push towards the piston and cause it to hang up, very common.


This would be my approach.

More common on the second valve for a couple of reasons but can happen to any of them.

-Denny
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The theories are going a different direction on TM.
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Pete
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just switch the guides around. It will take you a few minutes to see if that is the problem. Try the easiest thing first.

Pete
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Pete
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
The theories are going a different direction on TM.

I just saw them. They are drinking more than I am!

Pete
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:
Try switching the valve guides around.e

This seems a reasonable place to start. I think I'll begin with this. Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!
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jojocat
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would bet in Vince-green theory. Same thing happened to one of my horns and that was the problem.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You didn't mention valve clearance yet, so I will. Take the finger button off the 3rd valve stem. Grasp the stem between two fingers and try to move the stem in the valve casing, side-to-side and back-and-forth. If you can see it move in relation fo the hole in the top cap, the piston is worn and needs to be rebuilt.

My own Benge 5X had this problem and behaved the same as you describe, only with the 1st valve.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't some of these things have been done by Jim Becker when he gave a comprehensive overhaul and valve realignment?

How long can one expect such a process last?
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Wouldn't some of these things have been done by Jim Becker when he gave a comprehensive overhaul and valve realignment?

How long can one expect such a process last?


I don't have any experience with James Becker, so I can't comment on your situation as far as that goes. But, I can tell you that, in the case of my own Benge, the valves worked like lightning one day and the next the 1st valve gave me trouble. If someone had shown me the amount of movement in the piston prior to the valve sticking, I would have told them not to touch it!

It was like you described. No one could make the valve stick just pumping it up and down, but when I played the horn it would stick. It seemed like air from blowing pushed the piston out of alignment, or blew away the oil film enough to cause stiction.

Finally, Zig (or maybe it was Mark. I hear he is really good at rebuilding valves) rebuilt all of the valves and fit them so well that, to this day, I have not played a horn with valves that good.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
The theories are going a different direction on TM.

I just saw them. They are drinking more than I am!

Pete


Yep, GUMOUT???

Brad
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boog
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had this problem with most of the Benges that I have owned in my life. I have had several, all bought new, from "LA's" back in the early 70's to an '87 "Eastlake" CG that I bought new, and still have. They all had intermittently sticking valves, especially the 1st and 3rd valves. I really don't know why, but the 3rd valve on most all trumpets tends to collect more "mouth junk" than the other valves, and the 1st valve gets the most use. I had to be very aware of oiling and cleanliness with all of these instruments, as well as not pressing the valves from the sides if I could help it. Strangely enough, the Benge trumpets are the only horns I have owned that had a noticeable problem with this. Maybe it is because they were lightweight horns, and had thinner metal, I don't really know.

The Eastlake CG was sold for a time to a fellow player, and he kept it for almost 10 years, and I traded him a Strad for it back, after he bugged me for a time to sell him the Strad. When I got it back, I found that he had buffed the 1st valve to eliminate sticking, and now it, unfortunately, leaks some and requires heavier oil. Dang shame, and I could strangle him for it! But, it plays well still, not as good as the LA instruments, but it is still a keeper and is useful when you need a bright, sizzling sound.

That being said, Benges are usually fine if you can put up with these quirks and keep them scruptiously clean and oiled.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, boog. Very helpful perspective.
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