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Moving on to trombone


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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject: Moving on to trombone Reply with quote

I got myself an inexpensive alto trombone just like the one that Mike Lake reviews here in the following video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXvHIQGrB90

I just had a first "practice session" and it is disappointing. I didn't expect to start blowing right away like Bill Harris but I thought that transition from trumpet to trombone would be somewhat easier.

So far I'm getting nasty lifeless nasal sound with no resonance. I don't attribute this to the trombone itself since Mike in that video suggests that it's good enough and proves his words solidly with his wondeful playing.

Any suggestions on how to make transition to bone playing easier are welcome.
Share your experience please.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How good are you at regular trombone?
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As simple as this: I don't know since this is my first trombone ever.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alto trombone is a bit like the piccolo trumpet of trombone. It’s not really apples to apples, though. Maybe a bit more like eb cornet or trumpet in eb or g.

You wouldn’t start a trumpet player on piccolo trumpet, or any of those other key trumpets.

Why alto trombone?
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was an inexpensive, NOS offer.
In my understanding it wouldn't be much difference for an amateur trumpet player like me to go down:
- an octave to a Bb tenor
- a fifth to a Eb alto

There are a few posts on the forum on alto/tenor saxhorns in Eb and those who started to double on them reported that the transition was easy and they suggested that playing the horn is even less taxing than trumpet.

Range-wise the Eb alto trombone is the same thing as the Eb alto/tenor horn so I assumed that taking up an alto trombone would be quite easy. It's not.
I must admit I only played it once so far and maybe I haven't used to the feel of it yet but I expected much quicker and seamless results when transitioning to it from trumpet.

Sort of: 'Well, I now quickly adjust my airstream and embouchure setting and start messing with the slide positions getting used to them.'
Instead I find myself starting out on a completely new instrument.
I doubt that I would make better progress on a tenor trombone. Why?
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried playing trombone in a community band thirty years ago. Disaster. My mid-range was nasal-y and rough, even though I had accurate positions on a great King 3B trombone.

I don't mean to discourage you. The Eb alto trombone has a mouthpiece that is a little larger than a trumpet mouthpiece. It takes a different approach. The air needs to be a little larger, a little less velocity consistent with good support, being an open instrument there is probably a little less resistance than you are used to, and try to let the horn sing itself a little more.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Popes!

OK, second day into the alto trombone. Well, it gradually begins to speak. I'm now better finding the slotting... notes cracking but it's definitely showing some signs of becoming friends with me.


Last edited by SaxoTrump on Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:46 am; edited 2 times in total
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaxoTrump wrote:
There are a few posts on the forum on alto/tenor saxhorns in Eb and those who started to double on them reported that the transition was easy and they suggested that playing the horn is even less taxing than trumpet.

Only very recently I started doubling on a Baritone Horn as well as on Alto/Tenor Horn.

I am one of those posters that said the transition is relative easy. And indeed it is.

However it took me a few days of practicing, initially no more than 10 to 15 minutes a day with a relative low volume.

This was pretty much similar for both the Baritone Horn a well as the Tenor/Alto Horn.

This was only a few month ago.

Now I can practice either horn "all day long" so to speak. Something I still can't do on my trumpet.

So I suspect you need to allow a patient relative slow start-up period.

You may also need (initially) a smaller mouthpiece.

On the Tenor/Alto I use a Kanstul "Tenor 2" mouthpiece.
This came with the horn.

On the Baritone I use the relative small Schilke 40. I had to buy that separately.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Harry

PS Maybe consider to post questions on your Alto Trombone to:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1554614&highlight=#1554614

It would be great if we had a "Doubling to Low Brass" topic on the main forum page. I have suggested that, but the moderators never even bothered to respond.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Harry. The mouthpiece that is supplied with the horn is pretty decent. It's marked as '12C' and I've read elsewhere that it's a desirable cup for the alto.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I missing something? You are changing instruments and a different mouthpiece size and this is only the second day? This may seem cold, but what do you expect? Patience.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really know what to expect.

I've read some stories that went like this: 'I'm a trumpet player and I just played trombone for half an hour and it sounded great. Now, I don't know if I want to continue to play trumpet or become a full time trombonist'.

There are other trumpeters who say: 'I've just picked up a trombone and it's a piece of cake to play.'

Who knows what they mean though?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't finding out for yourself tell you the only personal answer? What does or does not work for one or the other has no effect on what your results are. Just let it all hang out for a while and then, later, think about how you are affected. "Rome wasn't built in a day".
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Am I missing something?

Yes you are
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaxoTrump wrote:
Thank you Harry. The mouthpiece that is supplied with the horn is pretty decent. It's marked as '12C' and I've read elsewhere that it's a desirable cup for the alto.

If it is a Bach 12 than it has an inner rim of 18.3 mm. That is relative small and I would think a good starter.

My Kanstul Tenor 2 has an inner rim of 18.75 mm. So a little bigger but "close enough".

My only Kanstul alternative is a Tenor 3 which is 18.00 mm.

All are in the same range vicinity.

Looks like you are well enough equipped except you may not have yet gained the level of patience that old timers like me gained the hard way through the school of Hard Knox

So take your time and stay with it 10 to 15 minutes per day for the time being. Than more as your body will allow.

Unless there are psychical handicaps than, statistically speaking, you should have no problem becoming a good low brass doubler on your Alto Trombone.

BTW Some years ago I bought a Kanstul slide trumpet (Bb Trombone). On occasion I pull it out to check/practice intonation.

Let us know your progress on the low brass doubling link I posted earlier. Others can than learn from your experiences.

Cheers,
Harry
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, just as I use trumpet Bb sheet music to practice the Baritone Horn, I use Eb trumpet sheet music to practice the Tenor/Alto horn.

How about Handle/Hayden/Sachse Eb trumpet Concerto's on an Eb slide trombone.
Would be pretty cool, don't you think?
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
How about Handle/Hayden/Sachse Eb trumpet Concerto's on an Eb slide trombone.
Would be pretty cool, don't you think?

I would much rather play the development high tessitura section in the 1st movement of the Hayden on valves than slides!!!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
Am I missing something?
Yes you are


. . . he said in a high-pitched voice.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I'm not that advanced to play any serious Classical stuff on brass instruments.
I normally play evergreens with simple impro on top.
Maybe only something like 'To a wild rose' is actually fine.

So, for me it's 'Oh when the Saints go marching in' and 'Autumn Leaves'. 'Confirmation' and 'Antropology' are beyond my reach.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I now find myself doing silly things.
Since I haven't learned any scales on trombone yet I'm simply counting partials to figure out in which position each note of 'When the Saints go...' is located.

I've written out a chart for myself with overtone series in each position and looking at it I can fill out a roadmap through the song.

Since this classic only has 5 notes it's pretty simple but I feel myself really dumb that I have to do it that way

I of course know that popular trumpeter's cheat code:
1st = open
2nd = 2
3rd = 1
4th = 1&2
5th = 2&3
6th = 1&3
7th = all 3 down

... but it doesn't work for me on the fly.
So far lot's of thinking goes into where to move the slide to get the right pitch.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaxoTrump wrote:
So far lot's of thinking goes into where to move the slide to get the right pitch.

Nothing wrong with having to figure things out.

I started the slide trumpet, just like you, equating trumpet valve slides lengths to
slide distance on the trumbone. (my new name for a slide trumpet )
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