Re-learning the instrument sans pressure

[Dave03]

Hi - like many others I am a returning player. I used to be of reasonable standard having played throughout childhood and until university, however my progression was always limited by endurance and range issues. I used to be a decent principal player in some youth ensembles.

After a circa 8 year gap I have now been back playing for about 2 years. I decided at the outset of the pandemic/lockdown to fix things once and for all - go back to basics and start again. Through Greg Spence's program and many other hundreds of teachings/forum posts I have made a dramatic shift away from lips squeezed together and pressure playing, to proper breathing, flow, removing tension, and having resonant vibration through the instrument rather than at the lips. It all feels great and so much more natural.

A couple of months ago I bought a pressure device (the spring thing that cuts off air if you use too much pressure) - this was a huge eye-opener - my use of pressure was so fundamentally ingrained it was entirely subconscious - whilst I thought I had removed most arm/lip pressure I hadn't at all. The first time using it I could barely get any note out.

Now - after about a month of short daily dabbling with this device - it's still difficult. It's also difficult without the device as the 'low pressure' technique becomes the default. I'm able to play comfortably low C-->A in the "new way" with great tone and low pressure. I can get middle B's and C's but not for any duration and not reliably - my corners tire from the new 'inward' motion and the note drops. These used to be extremely routine notes for me so it's a big shock to the system, but i'm reassured by the natural feeling of it all, and trying to be optimistic.

My hypothesis is that I'm suddenly using my embouchure properly having never done so in the past, and I simply haven't built up the corner strength/technique required - it really does feel like re-learning the instrument from scratch (apart from the valves and mechanical stuff which remains).

My question really was whether anybody else has experienced or gone through quite such a fundamental rethink and found their ability quite so far back to basics as part of that process? And whether it's in any way normal to struggle with relatively low notes like As and Bs without much pressure. Any hints and tips on what I should focus on for daily practice (within my new and rather basic limits!) would be fantastic.

I know the overwhelming response will be "get a good teacher" - and I will do this as soon as lockdown ends in my part of the world - but I would still love to hear your reflections. I feel i'm learning a lot and have the time, space and desire to get this right.

[kalijah]

Mouthpiece force is required to play. It is only a problem if it is excessive FOR YOU in achieving your results.

The "goal" is not some athletic feat to play with some arbitrary "minimum" pressure. Please get over that!

The goal is music. Learn to play with OPTIMUM mp force to achieve that goal.

There is NOTHING wrong with using the leverage of the mp rim to achieve musical results. You are not somehow "wrong" if you do.

If mp force is excessive to the point of interfering with the achievement of tone, and music, only THEN is it a problem.

[Bethmike]

Welcome to the forum! I noticed in your post that you did not mention effective use of your tongue. Correct positioning of your tongue is important in getting the air to do what needs to be done, and might provide the some of the results you were trying to get with excessive mouthpiece pressure. And if you simply just didn't put in your list of parameters that you are working on, I don't mean to be preachy.

Welcome to the hobby that gnaws at you, irritates you, and every so often, produces a sound so perfect it's all worth it.

Mike

And yes to the teacher thing, skype is perfect during these times.
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Kanstul 1001
Bach NY7
Yamaha 631 Flugel

[Bethmike]

Forgot to include, my teacher is John Mohan, can be found here. Great skype lessons.
_________________
Bach190ML43
Kanstul 1001
Bach NY7
Yamaha 631 Flugel

[wilder]

[TrpPro]

Buzz your lips, then do that in the mouthpiece. These are the embouchure muscles you want to develop. There's nothing wrong with using pressure. Pressure is a means to keep the lips in a touch position, which is necessary in order to sustain a vibration, when the embouchure muscles are unable to do the job.

Of course the lips don't last as long the more pressure you apply. This is why your practice should revolve around training the muscles that create a buzz. They're the ones that play the notes without having to resort to undo pressure.

It will take some time to get these muscles developed (6 months or so to start feeling the love) but this will take the pressure off.

[Bflatman]

Pressure is the most misunderstood element and the most harmful.

Of course mouthpiece pressure is required to play well.

Many players use excessive pressure without ill effects, however without a yardstick to judge no discussion of how much pressure is correct is possible.

I believe that many players use as much as ten times the pressure that they need to or even more. How do I know how much pressure you use, it is impossible for me to say. How then can I conclude that you use too much or enough or too little.

My own attempts at control of pressure began with using progressively less and less pressure until it became difficult to play and then to feed the pressure back in until sonorous notes emerged. This worked for me.

Your device seems worthy of use but only as a yardstick.

This pressure issue is fundamental.

Modern comfort rims make it comfortable to play, but they also make it comfortable to destroy the chops.

The existence of scar tissue on the lips from repeatedly shredding them is becoming commonplace it appears. This cannot be right.

Players use comfort rims to make it possible to mash the mouthpiece into they head without realising it.

Comfort rims should be used to increase endurance while playing well and not to make it possible to play badly.

Old style sharp rims feel like they will cut the players lips to ribbons at even moderate pressure but that is not the case. Sharp rims give the player feedback on the effects of the pressure they use and they stop using extreme pressure due to the discomfort.

It is possible to play on a sharp rim without discomfort.

You cannot use so much pressure with a sharp rim that the teeth are physically deformed in the head without realising that you are doing something wrong and damaging your teeth gums and chops, but you can with a comfort rim.

Some players use obscene amounts of pressure and still think they play well. I have read a question from a player who used so much pressure that his teeth were physically bent back in his head by the pressure alone every time he played. After he stopped playing the teeth went back to their correct position. This is madness.

This player genuinely thought this incredible amount of pressure was normal and his comfort rim allowed him to develop this deluded idea.

Beware of telling a player that he should use enough pressure to play and then relying upon the player alone to judge what too much pressure is. Many players simply have not got a clue.

I love sharp rims and cookie cutters I believe that the old school teachers knew exactly what they were doing when they allowed players to play on them. Using a sharp rim makes it possible for players to end the excessive pressure nightmare and for some players it really is a nightmare.

It is quite possible that some players could lose their front teeth or deform them permanently due to excessive pressure aided by comfort rims and misguided words.

Many modern players suffer pain using sharp rims and use this as an excuse to shift to comfort rims. Pain means you are doing something wrong.

Players could play on sharp rims back in the day without suffering pain because they had good technique and well developed embouchures.

In using comfort rims has the baby been thrown out with the bathwater.

I totally approve of this device.

[kalijah]

[Dave03]

Thank for for the replies - it is appreciated.

These points resonate in that I do agree I am over-focusing on pressure now, but I also think my mp pressure probably was detrimental to my playing in that it ruined my endurance (i used to be able to play brilliantly - but only for about 20 mins!), so I am keen to focus on improving that specifically. There is a good point well made that it's silly to focus on any one arbitrary thing in isolation though and set arbitrary limits/levels.

Thankfully I do not use such pressure that it causes or could cause damage like bflatman talks about - my poor endurance has always been enough to stop that ever happening.

I have read an awful lot about tongue position and never been able to 'get it' or usefully apply it to my playing, it's certainly not something I am i'm actively working on - I would gladly do so if I could get my head around it.

[JayKosta]

Mouthpiece Pressure - my thoughts:
It's important to learn how to use BOTTOM LIP pressure on the mouthpiece rim.

Many people seem to run into trouble by using only upper lip pressure, without regard or control of their lower lip.

I prefer to use my jaw to control the lower lip and teeth position and pressure, but other people claim good results by manipulating the angle of the mouthpiece on their lips.

Usually it is the upper lip that needs to be able to vibrate for playing higher pitches. If the upper lip cannot vibrate due to excessive rim pressure, that will limit the upper range. I find that transferring rim pressure from the upper lip to the lower gives more flexibility to the upper lip.
I believe it is critical to learn and balance the rim pressure on both the upper and lower lips.

Tongue Arch:
Tongue position and usage is quite controversial! There are many different opinions about how and if the tongue position itself makes a difference. But regardless of the actual position that the tongue assumes, there is muscle usage associated with efforts to move the tongue. And those muscle efforts do have an effect on other important aspects of the embouchure – lips, lower jaw, and throat. The effect is due to where the muscles that control tongue movement are attached, and how muscle tension on those areas can affect other tissue that is related to embouchure. For upper range playing, some players primarily (and successfully) claim to use tongue arch level and air flow as the way of controlling pitch – I think this is due to having ‘maxed out’ on direct control of lip tension, and the effect of changing the tongue arch is enough to induce subtle changes to the lips.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[deleted_user_687c31b]

Some pressure/effort is required but using less effort to produce a note will result in greater endurance and more control. The thing is, there are plenty of great players out there that use little lip pressure to play...so that means that, at least for some of the notes, lip pressure isn't a requirement in itself. For some players (having been one myself) excessive lip pressure is used to compensate for poor technique to reach the high (in reality, not that high) notes. That's the kind of lip pressure you should avoid. But the mouthpiece should still touch the lips of course, so 0 lip pressure isn't required either.

[Brad361]