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Relaxing to play high


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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Robert-

You can explain how it works (if necessary, which it may not be) without using terms that might encourage undesirable results.

And you're not teaching the student to write an embouchure dissertation - you're teaching them to build and use one.... You wouldn't expect a driving instructor to explain the finer points of internal combustion to a learner driver.

It can be explained using accurate terms in a way that won't encourage undesirable results.

"What happens is as the surrounding facial muscles tense up, some of that tension gets transferred to the part of the lip under the mouthpiece that's involved in buzzing. It's important that the tension is right - (demonstrate the sound falling apart with too much and too little lip tension) and that you don't tense up your throat (demonstrate the throat choking off the sound) Correct, useful tension here (indicate the embouchure area) but no tension here (indicate the throat) - you always want a free flow of air. You know you've got it right when your sound is good."

I can definitely see how leaving it vague and mysterious could cause problems. Or explaining it wrong - if you say something like "the embouchure should be relaxed" it's not just unclear, it's inaccurate. You can break it down to explain how the tissue immediately under the mouthpiece is more relaxed and that area the surrounding the mouthpiece effects the buzzing area in a subtle but important way.

I don't see it as an accurate analogy to compare the fairly simple concept of tension across the lip surface to the chemical and physics intricacies of internal combustion.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:

To borrow your logic.....

Not my logic. Yours, maybe, but not mine.
AJCarter wrote:

Because I don't want "to be afraid of the common technical terms because of someone's boogey-man connotations."

No, I never suggested that you tell middle school students to tense their faces. Or anything of the kind. It's not even a particularly good straw man. There are certainly options other than the two extreme views that you've expressed: 1. " 'Tension' is never the proper word. Ever." and 2. "I'll go tell all my middle school students to tense their faces for high notes from here on out." Rejection of one of those options does not prove the worth of the other one.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
AJCarter wrote:

To borrow your logic.....

Not my logic. Yours, maybe, but not mine.
AJCarter wrote:

Because I don't want "to be afraid of the common technical terms because of someone's boogey-man connotations."

No, I never suggested that you tell middle school students to tense their faces. Or anything of the kind. It's not even a particularly good straw man. There are certainly options other than the two extreme views that you've expressed: 1. " 'Tension' is never the proper word. Ever." and 2. "I'll go tell all my middle school students to tense their faces for high notes from here on out." Rejection of one of those options does not prove the worth of the other one.


Look man, at the end of the day everyone is going to teach their students differently with different language. I think instructing young students to tense their faces in anyway is ill-advised pedagogy AT THAT PARTICULAR AGE. If you have high school/college/adult students who understand physiology or have been studying for awhile then go right ahead. There are just as many highly regarded teachers who would side with you as would side with me, so this just seems to be a losing battle and a waste of both our times.
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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Tell the middle school students to blow really hard and to flex all their muscles as hard as they can. That should completely resolve the issue..........



I know INTJ's comment was meant in jest (hence the smiley faces!) but it did prompt a thought I felt worthy to add to the conversation. That is, a player should never consciously or intentionally tense or flex any part of the playing apparatus. There are so many high-note theories out there that talk about tight corners, tense abs, etc. While those conditions are generally present when playing to varying degrees, I believe they should be allowed to happen involuntarily, while the conscious focus should be on relaxed deep inhalation, and good posture and an open feeling in the chest and throat on exhalation. That to me is what relaxed playing means. When I was younger I remember reading professional players talking about locking down your corners, pushing from the diaphragm/abs, etc. and wasting time by practicing while consciously tensing these areas in hopes of improvement. It had the exact opposite result. When I'm playing progressively higher notes, particularly above High C, I'm aware that the air compression I'm creating is increasing, but I'm not doing anything to intentionally create it, it's an involuntary reaction. The only thing I need to watch out for is that my tongue, while arched, can get overly tense, which cause articulations to become less crisp. Staying consciously aware of mouthpiece pressure is another common watch-out that can add value, but for most, if everything else is working correctly, the pressure is self-regulating.

A topic that frequently comes up when discussing the upper register and relaxed playing is “diaphragmatic breathing,“ and it’s usually described in a way that I think makes no sense. It’s usually stated as, “breath from the diaphragm when inhaling, and push/support from the diaphragm when exhaling.” Even some of the big name pro’s talk about it like this, but my understanding of how the diaphragm works tells me this makes no sense. The diaphragm is a thin muscle that sits underneath the lungs. It involuntarily contracts when you’re breathing normally, which creates room for the lungs to expand, creating a vacuum that results in involuntary air inhalation. If you consciously take a deep breath, you are able to trigger the diaphragm to contract. Air exhalation actually happens when the diaphragm relaxes, it moves back up, decreasing the amount of room the lungs have, increases the air pressure in the lungs resulting in air being exhaled. So, “breath from the diaphragm” is meaningless since there is no other way to breath. “Support and push from the diaphragm when blowing” also makes no sense because it’s actually in a relaxed state upon exhalation. What, relax harder?! The more productive way to describe the process would probably be to say you should relax your lower abs when inhaling, allowing your stomach to naturally drop, and feel you rib cage expand like a bellows. This typically happens when you ask someone to take a deep breath like they were about to hold their breath under water. On the exhalation, when playing loudly and/or in the upper register, the feeling should be more of a squeeze in the lower back and along the ribs (the bellows). The abs will tense, but that’s not intentional. Throat and chest should remain tension free. That to me is a better mental model for breathing and support. None of this is a conscious effort, other than being aware of any tension that may exist and working to eliminate it
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
TKSop wrote:
Robert-

You can explain how it works (if necessary, which it may not be) without using terms that might encourage undesirable results.

And you're not teaching the student to write an embouchure dissertation - you're teaching them to build and use one.... You wouldn't expect a driving instructor to explain the finer points of internal combustion to a learner driver.

It can be explained using accurate terms in a way that won't encourage undesirable results.

"What happens is as the surrounding facial muscles tense up, some of that tension gets transferred to the part of the lip under the mouthpiece that's involved in buzzing. It's important that the tension is right - (demonstrate the sound falling apart with too much and too little lip tension) and that you don't tense up your throat (demonstrate the throat choking off the sound) Correct, useful tension here (indicate the embouchure area) but no tension here (indicate the throat) - you always want a free flow of air. You know you've got it right when your sound is good."

I can definitely see how leaving it vague and mysterious could cause problems. Or explaining it wrong - if you say something like "the embouchure should be relaxed" it's not just unclear, it's inaccurate. You can break it down to explain how the tissue immediately under the mouthpiece is more relaxed and that area the surrounding the mouthpiece effects the buzzing area in a subtle but important way.

I don't see it as an accurate analogy to compare the fairly simple concept of tension across the lip surface to the chemical and physics intricacies of internal combustion.


The point was that the trumpet student doesn't necessarily need to understand the mechanical details of how the embouchure works, they just need to learn to use it.
Equally, the learner driver doesn't need to understand the mechanical details of how the engine works, they just need to learn how to operate it.

Sometimes the details might help, in both cases... But not necessarily, and care needs to be taken to ensure a proper understanding is gleaned.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan wrote:
a player should never consciously or intentionally tense or flex any part of the playing apparatus.

I emphatically disagree with this. I get results from being familiar with *how* to tense the embouchure along with other elements that need to be in place.

One of the things I do is play a note and snatch the horn away to see what's going on with the musculature and other elements. Which is related to why I regard free-buzzing as worse than useless - what you do to free-buzz is completely unlike what you do when you actually play because the mp being in place fundamentally changes what happens with the involved tissues.
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:
But "Tension" is never the proper word. Ever. It already has negative connotations attached to it and telling a student to tense their face vs. engage the muscles will only lead to bad things.


Although it has been very much in vogue for several years to preach that the word, “tension,” (tense, tight) should never – under any circumstances – be spoken/uttered/intoned/whispered in the presence of a student, there are times when the word (or concept) is entirely appropriate and helpful in discussing the mechanics of the lips.

The word has been give a politically-incorrect significance within our community at the expense of avoiding a concept that is essential in describing the physics of pitch change in a vibrating string/mass/membrane (although the necessity of describing the physics of pitch change should be reserved for appropriate moments).

Length. Diameter/Mass/Shape/Density. Tension.

Of course, use the word appropriately and explain the attendant concepts fully.

If we ever demonstrate the use of tension as one mode of pitch change by use of a guitar string, drum head, or rubber band, it would be silly to try to find a way to use the word, “engage,” or “engagement,” rather than, “tension,” “tighten,” or similar.

The T-word is necessary.

It is impossible to play the trumpet with totally F-word chops (flaccid).


-Denny
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: A suggestion Reply with quote

Look at the Mystery to Mastery free trial and see if this will answer some of your questions about good and bad days. The course takes you thru steps that deepen your understanding by using exercises that guide you to proper technique. I just joined to the site and its very good at leading you toward your own guided education. All very basic an all very correct from what I’ve seen. Wont cost u a dime to try.
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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
AJCarter wrote:
But "Tension" is never the proper word. Ever. It already has negative connotations attached to it and telling a student to tense their face vs. engage the muscles will only lead to bad things.


Although it has been very much in vogue for several years to preach that the word, “tension,” (tense, tight) should never – under any circumstances – be spoken/uttered/intoned/whispered in the presence of a student, there are times when the word (or concept) is entirely appropriate and helpful in discussing the mechanics of the lips.

The word has been give a politically-incorrect significance within our community at the expense of avoiding a concept that is essential in describing the physics of pitch change in a vibrating string/mass/membrane (although the necessity of describing the physics of pitch change should be reserved for appropriate moments).

Length. Diameter/Mass/Shape/Density. Tension.

Of course, use the word appropriately and explain the attendant concepts fully.

If we ever demonstrate the use of tension as one mode of pitch change by use of a guitar string, drum head, or rubber band, it would be silly to try to find a way to use the word, “engage,” or “engagement,” rather than, “tension,” “tighten,” or similar.

The T-word is necessary.

It is impossible to play the trumpet with totally F-word chops (flaccid).


-Denny


Your studio space must be quite the collection of instruments just to demonstrate what "tension" means Also it would seem to me that there are a lot scientists and engineers here who are being WAY too technical in how they teach trumpet. There is such a thing as too much information. Giving students all the answers is typically what leads to over thinking and more complications. Many great teachers in our community have given students just enough info to get on the right path without giving them the GPS instructions and a Sherpa.

AJCarter clearly said muscles need to be engaged. He is simply choosing to use that word vs. another, and it also sounds like the increasing amount of angry villagers won't persuade him otherwise.

While the Orbicularis Oris (superior and inferior), Risorius, and Zygomaticus major, along with a few others, all work together to form the embouchure as a whole. These muscles work as a team, much like a safety net and if one isn't doing it's job properly due to too much work or too little then there'san issue.

It has been pretty well covered that the aperture should NOT be the place of tension otherwise there is no buzz. Yes, the aperture gets smaller and the pitch gets higher also due to air speed. Things also will feel firm or, "tight" because they are working harder to compete with the increase in airspeed and pressure. But there are plenty of ways to get students to realize what their embouchure is doing without lecturing away most of your lesson time with them.

I would bet that the vast majority of beginner students don't give a rat's patoot about any of stuff above relating to the muscles and how they work. They just want to make some noise. If we so choose, it's our job to help them in any way we can along the way, in any way we possibly can.

Can't we all just get along?
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet_cop wrote:
Denny Schreffler wrote:
AJCarter wrote:
But "Tension" is never the proper word. Ever. It already has negative connotations attached to it and telling a student to tense their face vs. engage the muscles will only lead to bad things.


Although it has been very much in vogue for several years to preach that the word, “tension,” (tense, tight) should never – under any circumstances – be spoken/uttered/intoned/whispered in the presence of a student, there are times when the word (or concept) is entirely appropriate and helpful in discussing the mechanics of the lips.

The word has been give a politically-incorrect significance within our community at the expense of avoiding a concept that is essential in describing the physics of pitch change in a vibrating string/mass/membrane (although the necessity of describing the physics of pitch change should be reserved for appropriate moments).

Length. Diameter/Mass/Shape/Density. Tension.

Of course, use the word appropriately and explain the attendant concepts fully.

If we ever demonstrate the use of tension as one mode of pitch change by use of a guitar string, drum head, or rubber band, it would be silly to try to find a way to use the word, “engage,” or “engagement,” rather than, “tension,” “tighten,” or similar.

The T-word is necessary.

It is impossible to play the trumpet with totally F-word chops (flaccid).


-Denny


Your studio space must be quite the collection of instruments just to demonstrate what "tension" means Also it would seem to me that there are a lot scientists and engineers here who are being WAY too technical in how they teach trumpet. There is such a thing as too much information. Giving students all the answers is typically what leads to over thinking and more complications. Many great teachers in our community have given students just enough info to get on the right path without giving them the GPS instructions and a Sherpa.

AJCarter clearly said muscles need to be engaged. He is simply choosing to use that word vs. another, and it also sounds like the increasing amount of angry villagers won't persuade him otherwise.

While the Orbicularis Oris (superior and inferior), Risorius, and Zygomaticus major, along with a few others, all work together to form the embouchure as a whole. These muscles work as a team, much like a safety net and if one isn't doing it's job properly due to too much work or too little then there'san issue.

It has been pretty well covered that the aperture should NOT be the place of tension otherwise there is no buzz. Yes, the aperture gets smaller and the pitch gets higher also due to air speed. Things also will feel firm or, "tight" because they are working harder to compete with the increase in airspeed and pressure. But there are plenty of ways to get students to realize what their embouchure is doing without lecturing away most of your lesson time with them.

I would bet that the vast majority of beginner students don't give a rat's patoot about any of stuff above relating to the muscles and how they work. They just want to make some noise. If we so choose, it's our job to help them in any way we can along the way, in any way we possibly can.

Can't we all just get along?


Hi, tpt_cop,

I was responding, primarily to -- "Tension" is never the proper word. Ever.

And, as I wrote and as you quoted -- (although the necessity of describing the physics of pitch change should be reserved for appropriate moments).

I wasn't trying to pick, or participate in, a fight. I was responding to AJCarter's statment, which he bolded, that ""Tension" is never the proper word. Ever."

Your perception of how I might engage a student during a lesson -- lecturing away most of [my] lesson time with them -- is incorrect.

I do, however, teach and talk about more than how to be a trumpet operator.

[You] would bet that the vast majority of beginner students ... just want to make some noise. I agree, and if all that we had was an unending supply of beginners who moved on to someone else to progress and mature we wouldn't have to teach theory, history, literature, performance, and the integration of the arts and culture.

-Denny

The studio also has a soprano and alto recorder, a keyboard hooked up to a sound system, and two badminton racquets
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet_cop wrote:
It has been pretty well covered that the aperture should NOT be the place of tension otherwise there is no buzz.

It has? Strictly speaking the aperture is empty space. There absolutely is tension in the lip tissue surrounding the aperture. Too much or not enough tension results in no buzz or an undesirable buzz.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:
mm55 wrote:
AJCarter wrote:

Oh well that case I'll go tell all my middle school students to tense their faces for high notes from here on out and I'll let you know how it goes!
\
Why the heck would you do that?


To borrow your logic.....

Because I don't want "to be afraid of the common technical terms because of someone's boogey-man connotations."

TKSop already made the point I'm trying to make as well: You can explain things to young students without using terms that, while correct, will be harmful as they will take things too literally. Also, a common beginner/middle school/Jr. high student is not going to know all of the biomechanical jargon you and Robert P are spewing out here. You are adults who went through all of the courses and have probably studied things at length. They have not.


The way around students that "take things too literally" is explain what the terms actually mean: "Muscles stretch or tighten other parts of the body. The muscles contract (shorten) and apply tension to another part of the body. Embouchure muscles contract and exert some force to change the shape of the lips and face. It's important to not over-do it." You can also demonstrate it instead: have them smile, frown, stretch their faces and all kinds of whacky things to demonstrate the different muscles. Then have them relax and feel the embouchure muscles and tell them, "That is no tension." After that, have them pucker their lips and feel them, then tell them, "That is tension. You need some tension to play, but too much of that will hurt your playing."

Describing it that way will not harm any students.

"Boogey-man connotations" come about through mis-use of terms or lack of proper understanding.

That said, I wouldn't jump into an anatomical explanation of the embouchure unless I were trying to help the student work out some sort of chop issue that was bugging his playing. Instead, there are some good basic explanations in the Charles Colin and Walter M. Smith books, among others. Even then, care must be taken because the interpretation of the word "tension" is not the real enemy; the real enemy is the student becoming so focused on how he is doing something that he forgets just what he is doing and can no longer do it.

But the avoidance of excess tension is something students will need to be reminded of from time to time, some more than others.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
The point was that the trumpet student doesn't necessarily need to understand the mechanical details of how the embouchure works, they just need to learn to use it.

What's being lost sight of is that the thread started with someone asking a specific question about relaxation - they're looking for details.
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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
trumpet_cop wrote:
It has been pretty well covered that the aperture should NOT be the place of tension otherwise there is no buzz.

It has? Strictly speaking the aperture is empty space. There absolutely is tension in the lip tissue surrounding the aperture. Too much or not enough tension results in no buzz or an undesirable buzz.


Not sure with whom you studied but, yes. It has. You seem to be one of the folks that I think AJ is talking about when he said sometimes people take things too literally as I clearly gave explanation and used terms that are being question here... allow me to quote that particular passage for you so you don't miss it again.

Quote:

...the aperture gets smaller and the pitch gets higher also due to air speed. Things also will feel firm or, "tight" because they [the muscles forming the embouchure] are working harder to compete with the increase in airspeed and pressure.


While I did not explicitly say, "tighten your muscles!" This is the explanation I feel is best for students. You also said if there is too much tension things will sound poor and will lack resonance. Let me also pose to you a question: Where is the origin of that tension.. the site of the buzz itself? No. THAT is where the tension should not exist.

Rather than spouting off all these circumlocutory explanations, I believe Tpt_Guy's explanation would do best in 98% of situations

Tpt_Guy wrote:

Embouchure muscles contract and exert some force to change the shape of the lips and face. It's important to not over-do it.


The rest of his paragraph is spot on as well without being overly verbose.

Denny, my lecturing comment was more directed at people who seem to think explaining everything in great detail as I previously had to a beginner or young student, rather than getting them to participate in exercises and etudes that will allow them to discover things for themselves. Again, there has to be some directions... but too many will result in the student not finding things for themselves. The same reason why back in the day my teacher wouldn't play Bitsch etudes for me.. he wanted me to learn them on my own not by hearing it first. (same concept different application)

As far as the other topics minus lit, performance, and the cultural context, that is better left to the folks who spent their lives poring over books in relation to theory and history. At least it is in my life! I don't want to spend a trumpet lesson going over a Beethoven piano sonata helping the student find the core of the development. I will also concede that your studio has a far more impressive cadre of instruments than mine; I've only got the horns and a piano.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Relaxing to play high Reply with quote

RobertP wrote:

I regard free-buzzing as worse than useless


At which institution are you currently teaching? Because apparently I need to get educated. Or maybe you have a method or text book out that I can read to set me straight.

I'm not a big free buzzing guy or anything, but there are benefits to it as long as you know that, "it can be explained using accurate terms in a way that won't encourage undesirable results." To completely and utterly dismiss something that has been used and applied successfully to trumpet pedagogy is ignorant.

To clarify once more and hopefully better this time...

I've studied enough to know that ACTIVELY tensing your face, meaning applying more tension than is needed to create the embouchure and resulting buzz, is harmful. This is why I do not specifically instruct students to "Use more tension!" I choose to use other terms that will make them think and work in ways that will get them to do this. I am aware that the muscles all work together and contract thereby applying tension. I do not actively give the instruction to apply more tension. Same reason why I never say "push the air!": While more advanced players and students may be able to grasp the concepts and differentiate between the scientific meaning and the generalized poor meaning of those instructions, younger students often times cannot. It is much simpler to get them doing things and then explain it later after they have a hang of it. Who hopped into a manual transmission car for the first time ever and didn't grind some gears or jack-rabbit a little? I was given instructions on how to do it, but I still didn't make it happen right away. You still need to get the feel for it even if it is explained.

The bottom line is, I teach in a state where marching band and DCI are king and during those seasons these kids develop awful habits in the name of playing louder and trying to play higher, while keeping their faces steady. Then after they do that from June to October or November, It's my turn to undo all those bad habits that are inadvertently encouraged by band directors and sometimes even poorly informed marching techs. I am going to continue demonizing the active use of tension past what is needed because that is what my students need to hear. They need to relax their faces more.

OP; go find a teacher or local full-time pro in your area and ask them instead of people on the internet who may or may not have good information or ways to achieve your desired results.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no winning with trumpet players when it comes to the words we use for our visualizations. One player may “relax” into the right setting while another will “firm up” into the right setting. The goal is the same, and that is to get the lips to buzz at the right frequency. Because we think in different ways, not all visualizations work for everyone.

I delayed my upper range for a couple years because I was taught to “keep open” so when I closed down my mouth cavity one day and added a third to my range I stopped doing that because I knew I was supposed to “keep open”. When I finally realized that “closed mouth cavity” was just how a high tongue arch felt I quit worrying about “keeping open” and realized that the words we use for visualizations are not written in stone.

So nowadays in practice I think about how a certain note physically feels and focus on gaining muscle memory. I don’t worry if the visualization I am using would send other players sideways and create arguments on Trumpet Herald.

And on different days I have to visualize differently to get my extreme upper range (B below DHC to DHE) to speak. Some days I need to visualize rolling my lower lip out, some days I need to visualize pushing my tongue forward, some days I visualize raising the back of my tongue. Once I find that setting it works for the day, and the more I practice the less hard it is to find the setting each day.

What I have to think about the same way each day is no shoulder tension, firm air support but not too firm, good posture with my head not bent forward, and a focused aperture.

Others will do it differently.........
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
There is no winning with trumpet players when it comes to the words we use for our visualizations. One player may “relax” into the right setting while another will “firm up” into the right setting. The goal is the same, and that is to get the lips to buzz at the right frequency. Because we think in different ways, not all visualizations work for everyone.

I delayed my upper range for a couple years because I was taught to “keep open” so when I closed down my mouth cavity one day and added a third to my range I stopped doing that because I knew I was supposed to “keep open”. When I finally realized that “closed mouth cavity” was just how a high tongue arch felt I quit worrying about “keeping open” and realized that the words we use for visualizations are not written in stone.

So nowadays in practice I think about how a certain note physically feels and focus on gaining muscle memory. I don’t worry if the visualization I am using would send other players sideways and create arguments on Trumpet Herald.

And on different days I have to visualize differently to get my extreme upper range (B below DHC to DHE) to speak. Some days I need to visualize rolling my lower lip out, some days I need to visualize pushing my tongue forward, some days I visualize raising the back of my tongue. Once I find that setting it works for the day, and the more I practice the less hard it is to find the setting each day.

What I have to think about the same way each day is no shoulder tension, firm air support but not too firm, good posture with my head not bent forward, and a focused aperture.

Others will do it differently.........


Well said!

This is where it becomes important to work with a teacher, of course...

It's all very well doing your reading, but if what you actually implement is less than optimal then either you've misunderstood or what you're actually doing isn't quite what you think you are - if you have a teacher you can talk about what you're doing and you'll have someone observing and listening to what effects it's having... If you're just reading (internet or otherwise) and doing what you think is right, you can wind up wasting time practicing and then subsequently breaking those new habits.
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AJCarter
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Joined: 29 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
INTJ wrote:
There is no winning with trumpet players when it comes to the words we use for our visualizations. One player may “relax” into the right setting while another will “firm up” into the right setting. The goal is the same, and that is to get the lips to buzz at the right frequency. Because we think in different ways, not all visualizations work for everyone.

I delayed my upper range for a couple years because I was taught to “keep open” so when I closed down my mouth cavity one day and added a third to my range I stopped doing that because I knew I was supposed to “keep open”. When I finally realized that “closed mouth cavity” was just how a high tongue arch felt I quit worrying about “keeping open” and realized that the words we use for visualizations are not written in stone.

So nowadays in practice I think about how a certain note physically feels and focus on gaining muscle memory. I don’t worry if the visualization I am using would send other players sideways and create arguments on Trumpet Herald.

And on different days I have to visualize differently to get my extreme upper range (B below DHC to DHE) to speak. Some days I need to visualize rolling my lower lip out, some days I need to visualize pushing my tongue forward, some days I visualize raising the back of my tongue. Once I find that setting it works for the day, and the more I practice the less hard it is to find the setting each day.

What I have to think about the same way each day is no shoulder tension, firm air support but not too firm, good posture with my head not bent forward, and a focused aperture.

Others will do it differently.........


Well said!

This is where it becomes important to work with a teacher, of course...

It's all very well doing your reading, but if what you actually implement is less than optimal then either you've misunderstood or what you're actually doing isn't quite what you think you are - if you have a teacher you can talk about what you're doing and you'll have someone observing and listening to what effects it's having... If you're just reading (internet or otherwise) and doing what you think is right, you can wind up wasting time practicing and then subsequently breaking those new habits.


+1 to both.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet_cop wrote:
Robert P wrote:
trumpet_cop wrote:
It has been pretty well covered that the aperture should NOT be the place of tension otherwise there is no buzz.

It has? Strictly speaking the aperture is empty space. There absolutely is tension in the lip tissue surrounding the aperture. Too much or not enough tension results in no buzz or an undesirable buzz.


Not sure with whom you studied but, yes. It has.

I'm curious what you think the mechanism is that facilitates any buzz, as well as a faster or slower buzz and at different volume levels involving the tissue around the aperture (which is itself empty space) if you think it isn't controlled tension. Are you of the belief that there isn't tension across the tissue and that this tension doesn't change?


Quote:
allow me to quote that particular passage for you so you don't miss it again.

Quote:
...the aperture gets smaller and the pitch gets higher also due to air speed. Things also will feel firm or, "tight" because they [the muscles forming the embouchure] are working harder to compete with the increase in airspeed and pressure.


While I did not explicitly say, "tighten your muscles!" This is the explanation I feel is best for students. You also said if there is too much tension things will sound poor and will lack resonance. Let me also pose to you a question: Where is the origin of that tension.. the site of the buzz itself? No. THAT is where the tension should not exist.

Tension *has* to exist at the site of the buzz. The trick is the right amount of tension. The muscles of the face act to change the tension across the vibrating tissue via transference.

When you say tension shouldn't exist at the site of the buzz what you really mean is excessive tension. Insufficient tension will prevent the desired results as well.
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trumpet_cop
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Joined: 18 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:

When you say tension shouldn't exist at the site of the buzz what you really mean is excessive tension. Insufficient tension will prevent the desired results as well.


Your pedantic tendencies must be a riot at office parties and jury deliberations

I've already said that yes, there is some tension that has to exist due to muscles working. However the aperture must remain pliable with as little tension as is needed. Again, you are deflecting other questions as to your background of study that would help other in understanding why you are being so peremptory about this topic.

Read a book or listen to interviews by great players and pedagogues. I will trust the likes of Barbara Butler and David Hickman over the rantings of a dilettante keyboard warrior who has posted enough times demonstrating several gaps in their knowledge any day of the week. Good day, sir.
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