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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:22 pm Post subject: Quintet: Mellophone or F. Horn? |
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The part is in F. I haven't played horn since college. I used to love playing it. Back then we still called it French Horn. We are forming a quintet and the middle spot is open. I'd love to fill that spot with either horn or mellophone. I also played one of those back then, but that was in G. Anyway, mellophone fingering is the same as trumpet. French horn has wrinkles in fingering and then there is the F/Bb thing with the trigger.
The question is how bad is the intonation of a mellophone and how far is it away from the sound of a French Horn?
Should I just bite the bullet and get the horn? Or can I do a credible job with the mellophone? Both mean spending money, though the mellophone can be had cheaper. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3774 Location: AL
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding mellophone, it really depends on what you want to pay for it. Through partnerships with drum corps, the manufacturers have really improved those instruments. I purchased an Eastman mello for my band this year that has a pretty solid scale. Many feel that the Yamaha mellos are the best out there. You can find those used at good prices from The Cadets, Bluecoats, and Carolina Crown. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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C.E.Divine Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2013 Posts: 285
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Mellophone is going to have a much edgier and penetrating sound than the French horn. Mellophones are much better than what they used to be, but the sound profile is on another continent. It can be helped by using s French horn mouthpiece with an adaptor if you shoes to take the mellophone route, but I wouldn't consider a mellophone for anything outside marching band or Stan Kenton. _________________ Corey Divine
Bach LR19043B B-flat
Blackburn converted Bach C
Kanstul CC920 Piccolo
Blessing XL Flugelhorn
J.W. York and Sons Perfec-Tone B-flat/A Cornet |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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C.E.Divine wrote: | Mellophone is going to have a much edgier and penetrating sound than the French horn. Mellophones are much better than what they used to be, but the sound profile is on another continent. It can be helped by using s French horn mouthpiece with an adaptor if you shoes to take the mellophone route, but I wouldn't consider a mellophone for anything outside marching band or Stan Kenton. |
The Horn players I know regard Mellophone the same way trumpet players look at a slide trumpet or pocket trumpet.
Whether that's deserved or accurate I can't say, I'm don't have much exposure to Mellophone, but that's the perception. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Uberopa Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 924 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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The old curved mellophones are much tamer that the bell front style. If you are able to find one in good shape then give it a go. As they are obsolete they often show up in band room back closets. I have a 1928 Buescher and it will fit with a French Horn section. The lower register does not extend as far as a horn but it really nails the upper register. With the mellophone there is no real embouchure change and the piston valves are played with the same hand. I would stay away from the Getzen frumpets as they are very tuney.
Merry Christmas,
Brian |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2310 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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If I had hired you to cover the horn part for a quintet gig and you showed up with a mellowphone, we'd have some "serious words out back".
If you're reading some stuff and the rest of the group is ok with it, more power to you.
Musically the obvious tone difference, bell direction, tuning would all be issues and I don't think the Mellowphone has quite the same natural range (but I may be wrong there).. A Mellow in place of a Horn will definitely impact the overall sound of the group and affect choice of music.
In a quintet, my first sub for horn parts is a trombone -> 2 trpts, 2 bones, tuba/bass bone _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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B_Starry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2002 Posts: 903 Location: Lake Norman
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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I would steer clear of mellophone.
As an alternative to (French) horn, I would recommend Eb alto horn. If you are used to transposing from Bb trumpet to C parts, then it would be the same (from Eb to F.)
And the tone quality is much better on the alto, IMO. _________________ do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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After reading all of this, I think I will just get a horn. Works for quintet and any other groups I come across. The next question is which horn works for a returning player after so many years away. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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bike&ed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 1837
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | After reading all of this, I think I will just get a horn. Works for quintet and any other groups I come across. The next question is which horn works for a returning player after so many years away. |
There are active horn forums for this purpose... |
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 696 Location: Flinders, Australia
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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For the last 20 years I have doubled on horn and trumpet, currently 2nd horn in a community orchestra. My main horn is an Alexander 102ST. In april this year our orchestra had a trip to China, having heard horror stories of checked in instruments I bought a Sterling (made in china I think) to take, single Bb with stopping valve, very reasonably priced, well made and played well.
Survived checked baggage both ways with no damage. There is also a double horn from the same company. Quite suitable for occasional use.
Regards, Stuart. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | The next question is which horn works for a returning player after so many years away. |
Do you mean which of F Horn, Bb Horn, or double horn, or which brand/model horn? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:44 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Richard III wrote: | The next question is which horn works for a returning player after so many years away. |
Do you mean which of F Horn, Bb Horn, or double horn, or which brand/model horn? |
If I am playing a part written for F horn, which makes it easier? And given that, which brand/model? I'll take any recommendations _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:52 am Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: |
The Horn players I know regard Mellophone the same way trumpet players look at a slide trumpet or pocket trumpet.
Whether that's deserved or accurate I can't say, I'm don't have much exposure to Mellophone, but that's the perception. |
I've had the same observation. I used to play regularly in the pit orchestra of a local musical theater organization and any horn parts were covered by the orchestra manager on a mellophone - old style, rear-facing bell. Horn players I knew from other community ensembles would almost universally turn their noses up to it. While it was a bit brighter sounding, it made a good substitute for a horn and blended well. We never heard any complaints.
If I understand it correctly, these old instruments were designed so trumpet players could double on horn parts without messing with their chops, as the mouthpieces are often designed with trumpet rims. (Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.)
And are there really trumpet players out there that regard slide trumpets with scorn? They're basically soprano trombones. I once heard a recording of a trombone choir with instruments ranging all the way from bass up to soprano and it sounded pretty amazing. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | And are there really trumpet players out there that regard slide trumpets with scorn? They're basically soprano trombones. I once heard a recording of a trombone choir with instruments ranging all the way from bass up to soprano and it sounded pretty amazing. |
Frankly, I had difficulty coming up with a trumpet equivalent for mellophone as regarding horn players. I guess I regard a slide trumpet like a toy, but that's because I've mostly seen cheap Asian slide trumpets - so, it has more to do with the specific instruments I've seen than the instrument itself. I have seen real slide trumpets/soprano trombones in action and in a trombone choir (good trombone choirs sound gorgeously amazing). So, it's a flawed analogy. Even pocket trumpets are more regarded as a cute curiosity or a toy (at least I do) - which isn't quite the same way horn players see mellophones - as you astutely point out. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | If I am playing a part written for F horn, which makes it easier? And given that, which brand/model? I'll take any recommendations |
I would learn the conventional fingering/thinking for double horns, in which case if the music is in F, you can use either simply an F single Horn, the F side of a double horn or the double horn (using both F and Bb fingering but, conceptually, ignoring that part of the horn fingering is actually Bb).
An option is to learn how to transpose from F to Bb and use the Bb fingering patterns as you on Bb Horn. To me, this is confusing, but I had a guy in one of my bands who did exactly that.
If it were me, I'd get myself a double horn and learn the fingerings as-is. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:59 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Richard III wrote: | If I am playing a part written for F horn, which makes it easier? And given that, which brand/model? I'll take any recommendations |
I would learn the conventional fingering/thinking for double horns, in which case if the music is in F, you can use either simply an F single Horn, the F side of a double horn or the double horn (using both F and Bb fingering but, conceptually, ignoring that part of the horn fingering is actually Bb).
An option is to learn how to transpose from F to Bb and use the Bb fingering patterns as you on Bb Horn. To me, this is confusing, but I had a guy in one of my bands who did exactly that.
If it were me, I'd get myself a double horn and learn the fingerings as-is. |
I think this is the way to go. Once relearned, it also gives me options for other groups as horn players are not that common. My main concern all along was the sound. As many have pointed out, mellophone just doesn't give the horn sound well. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7769 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:21 am Post subject: |
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I'd not want to play in a quintet if the horn player was using a marching melli. I doubt I'd want to play if player was using an old curved one, either. You say you've played horn before, pick up a double and play around with it for a week and the fingerings won't be an issue. Whether on the Bb or F side, they are perfectly logical in progression and it shouldn't take long to figure them out. Double puts the partials at the top of the staff a bit further apart so notes are more secure there and you won't be struggling between seconds, they'll be 4ths and 3rds. Probably the biggest problem you'll have initially is tuning the horn against itself: it's unlikely you'll have all of the 6 valve slides completely pushed in, then you also need to tune the F side to the Bb side. Just takes some time. Some of the manufacturers have some good suggestions for starting positions, or seek help from a horn player if you have a lot of time.
BTW- i've still got 4 doubles in my basement from my old ghetto teaching days... |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the advice. It should be interesting. I haven't played one since the 70's. The fingering became second nature pretty quickly. I'll be looking around for possible rentals in my area to get started. I just looked up the price of new and it's shocking. I thought trumpets were expensive. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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ChopsGone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 1793
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:14 am Post subject: |
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I'd argue in favor of the mello for one reason: it's vastly easier for a trumpet player to master. A few years back, my granddaughter was taking a chamber music course with very limited enrollment, mostly gut-scrapers, and was asked if she could cover the horn parts. The school lent her a Dynasty marching mellophone. After hearing it, I found her a very good Yamaha YMP-204M and did a little research on how best to set it up. With a much better mouthpiece (Wick 2 tenor horn), improved valve alignment, and the suggested arrangement of bottom caps/washers (Curry CCaps set up per Middle Horn Leader article), it actually had a perfectly acceptable scale. She had to hold it back a bit, of course, but when set up right and played with the music in mind, it's not half bad.
I also have a real mello, a Conn 4E, as well as a Getzen Flumpet and a Conn 16E mellophonium. Plus an Olds Ambassador double horn (very much like a Conn 6D) and a natural horn with crooks for eight different keys. And, of course, one of those Chinese Wagnertuben which use a horn-like mouthpiece. The marching mellophone is by far the easiest of those to play. A trumpet player can just pick one up and start playing.
So I'd say a lot depends on how much use you expect to see from your horn purchase. In her case, she was able to cover horn as well as bassoon parts well enough to suit the teacher's needs, while if she'd used my double horn (which she tried), it would have been well into the next school year before she could have done it well. Transposition is a lot easier to learn than a whole new fingering system. _________________ Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls.... |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Just to be clear, a Mellophone in F is an octave higher than a French Horn. It's akin to the high Horn in F on a triple Horn.
Unless you plan to march or play Kenton Mellophone charts I'd stick to Horn.
Mt 2 cents. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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