Harrelson Trumpet

[deanoaks]

Very odd.. I owned 2 Harrelson trumpets about a decade ago, one of which was silver plate and I do remember seeing that crease but I never once thought it was a major defect. I certainly didn’t notice a difference in the way it played when the creases appeared. It would be the same as somebody complaining that the sawtooth impressions on a natural trumpet where the metal was hand hammered was a defect. Or somebody complaining about being able to see the two pieces of the bell on a Monette, lotus, or similar.

Normally I would symphatize with the customer is situations like this but given the fact that he thought taking a pair of pliers to remove a mouthpiece and the fact that OP clearly created this account to bash Harrelson (and has yet to post again) it is quite difficult to take him seriously.
I’m sorry that Jason needed to waste the time to resolve this on a public forum.
I don’t understand why custom companies take so much nonsensical scrutiny like this.

[royjohn]

The customer in this flap is not an ideal, sympathetic one. That said, the policy of not taking a return is not one you would expect from a custom horn maker. The profit margin on these horns is high and, while there might reasonably be a charge for taking back a custom horn which might need to be modified before it can be resold, the policy of refusing any returns on horns which cannot be played before being bought and are very different from anything else you can buy is inviting trouble and anyone familiar with Mr. Harrelson would know that he's had his share of it and apparently remains insightless as to why these disputes continue to occur.

I would also comment that it is not normal for there to be a visible, indented seam running down the middle of a trumpet pipe. Yes, it may be sturdy, but it isn't a normal finish and I don't blame someone for complaining about it. It is perfectly possible to fill in such a seam with silver solder and doing so should not keep a plating job from being pristine. Or you could weld it so that the seam didn't show, but that would take a lot of time and the manufacturer didn't want to spend that time. You can plate over a good solder joint just as well as you can over brass. Mr. Harrelson has chosen to use a different manufacturing technique and leave a seam and then claim it is normal, which it is not. Yes, it is stable. No, it isn't pretty or typical. In fact, I'd challenge anyone to show me other horns which are made this way.

About the best thing I can say about this interaction is that two difficult people encountered each other. As far as a policy of not accepting a return on a custom horn, I think it is nuts and I think anyone who buys a horn on this basis deserves any heartache they get. There are many builders who will work with you to make sure you are satisfied or accept a return if the horn just doesn't suit you.
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[OldSchoolEuph]

This one is on the OP.

If you buy a horn in that price range, from a maker who specializes in making "one of a kind" horns, there are three things any rational person entering into that transaction should certainly be aware of.

First, one of a kind means unique. It may suit you perfectly, or more likely it suits someone else, not you, perfectly. This can be in look, feel, playing characteristics, response, tone, or all of the above plus more.

Second, it is hand built and there will be signs of that, unique quirks of fabrication, that you had better be aware of and accepting of, because total uniformity is inconsistent with hand-build. The pictures on the site do show the seam, including the "pitting" effect. The seam is deep enough that it is not a crack, not a path for leakage, and the fabrication method involved is going to produce this, so its simply false to call it a "defect".

Lastly, the thing about a one of a kind horn is that while you pay a lot for that uniqueness, its not going to have much resale because its unique. I understand folks waiting 5 and 6 years for one of these tailored to their preferences. I am baffled as to why anyone would buy one "off the shelf". Either way though, part of the bargain is the implicit acceptance that you are not getting your money back. That's what "custom" means.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[shofarguy]

Royjon,

I agree with some, maybe even most, of what you wrote. But, there are a few things that you mention that only those making the horn can accurately address.

Yes, Jason has some faults and failures in his ability to relate to customers. To be fair, I have read many comments by people who are confident they know his business better than he does. I think that is presumptuous, if not preposterous.

The particular challenge, in this case, is with parts of the Harrelson design that no other trumpet manufacturer utilizes, so assuming that traditional application of traditional methods will be sufficient to solve the matter is also presumptuous, unless someone has been involved in the research and development of the product and know Jason is either ignorant or lying.

It is also a fantasy to think that other manufacturers do not have similar issues with similar customers. That just isn't true. The old anecdote, "The customer is always right," is for the sales department, not the manufacturing part of the process. As far as fabrication goes, most customers don't know the slightest thing about how the product is made.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[LittleRusty]

[royjohn]

Hi Brian and All,

I don't know if I'm presumptuous, ignorant or lying, you all would have to determine that, but I do know that solder will run right down a groove like that pictured in this thread and that solder line can then be buffed smooth and silver plated. I suppose one can leave a seam like that as a manufacturer's mark, but if you look at the pictures closely, it is a little irregular or pitted looking in spots and doesn't look great to me. I've seen little imperfections in custom jobs I've had done and it didn't bother me a lot, but I do understand folks paying several thousand dollars for a horn might want it looking pristine.

It looks to me like two very particular people butted heads here, as I said. I suppose the buyer should have known or read the fine print and realized that there are no returns on these trumpets. I would also stand by my assertion that other custom makers don't operate the way that Jason does and it shows in the controversies that have cropped up here. Personally I wouldn't want to operate this way, but it is a free country and I think his published terms cover him.

Harrelson trumpets look so wild and unique and special that I think it would be easy to expect the world and be disappointed...comes with the territory, I guess.
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[trumpaholic]

Overrated and overpriced! If I had paid seven grand for that...………...it would not be good.
_________________
Have horn, will travel!

[JetJaguar]

Somebody like Jason Harrelson is not going to allow something he believes is a defect to remain on one of his instruments.
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com

[Brad361]

[trumpaholic]

Hi Brad, yes, I have owned one and several of the pro players in Toronto have as well, they dumped theirs as did I.
_________________
Have horn, will travel!

[JasonHarrelson]

I have read interesting comments here and would like an opportunity to respond to the assertion that I am somehow difficult to work with concerning trumpet builds and/or customer service. And I would like to provide more details regarding what I have done for John specifically to help him with this particular situation, which is based on his medical bills and not a "defective" instrument.

HARRELSON CUSTOMER SERVICE

When working with me personally and/or my company, I highly recommend getting the facts directly from us rather than relying on chat rooms and forums. You will receive real information from the source whereas there are many competitors and numerous sales people in the trumpet business who consistently add negativity to the name, "Harrelson" whenever possible to benefit their own bottom line.

Please keep in mind that the majority of customers who bring their problems to social media have either waited too long for their orders or have experienced some type of buyer's remorse. I would like to address these two scenarios separately as I have experienced every one of my customer's issues first-hand since I built and sold their equipment.

1) Customers who wait too long:

Yes, it is true that a small percentage of our custom build orders have required very long wait times. There is no simple solution for this challenge considering the fact that almost all customers waiting longer than 12 months did in fact order something completely custom that requires extra engineering, machining, finishing, etc. with truly unknown design and production timelines. It is literally impossible to know how much time is required to make something that I have never made before.

To add to this challenge, many of these very same customers have made multiple changes to the art, design and engineering of their orders throughout the build process. In fact, some customers have had me build 3 or 4 different iterations of the same horn before settling on one design. This is exactly why we began limiting custom trumpet orders to only 2 per month in 2017-18 and may reduce this down to 1 per month in 2019.

Do I believe these customers have a right to complain about the long wait time to receive their new custom horns? Yes! But let's be reasonable, no one should be asked to balance this kind of work with regular production AND deal with multiple design changes over the coarse of the build. Almost every one of these customers could have shortened their wait time by working with me to produce art, design and engineering solutions that were faster to build. When a customer has a vision, I'm here to bring that to reality, but there cannot be a pre-determined deadline unless you're willing to compromise on details. And not everyone is willing to compromise.

2) Customers experiencing buyer's remorse:

The vast majority of my clients who experience buyer's remorse tell me they really should not have made the purchase in the first place due to financial reasons. While this does not happen often, we do have around 2 to 3 clients per year explain that they need to sell their new custom horn only months after purchasing because they are experiencing financial difficulties. I cannot be held accountable for any customer's actions regarding how or where they spend their money.

Some customers experience remorse due to their experience with their new trumpet. If and when this issue is related to the configuration, build quality, finish or other aspects directly within our control, WE ALWAYS OFFER AN EXCHANGE for a new horn built with a different configuration to better fit their personal needs. In fact, every single Harrelson client is given the exact same opportunity as stated on our website and copied here:

"All Harrelson Trumpets are GUARANTEED to meet or exceed your performing needs. Harrelson Trumpets is confident that your new custom trumpet will meet or exceed your expectations. Every new Harrelson Trumpet includes a full 12-month guarantee. You may exchange your trumpet for full credit towards a new Harrelson Trumpet based on your original invoice amount allowing you to upgrade to a more efficient or different configuration without risking any of your investment. Requires trade to be in mint condition for full price exchange."

We also offer the following 30-day guarantee on all 5MM Modular Mouthpieces:

"All 5MM Modular Mouthpieces include a free personal consultation via phone, email, Skype or in person; a free 30-day parts exchange period (longer for international customer due to shipping/customs delays); Money-back guarantee within 30 days of purchase for any reason (all parts must be in perfect condition to avoid re-stocking fee)"

These policies cover all expenses except shipping. If you purchase a VPS Summit trumpet today and decide in 11 months that the configuration could be improved, we will build you a new horn and make an even exchange at no cost. Do you know of any other manufacturer that offers this service and guarantee? We have offered this since 2010 and many clients have fine tuned their configuration. This is where we get our "used" Harrelson inventory sometimes available on our website.

Concerning returns, we do not accept returns for one very simple reason. Our mission is to provide the best possible performance solutions for each individual client's specific needs. We are not in the business of buying and selling trumpets. It may seem that way to some people, but in reality we are a company firmly rooted in design, consulting and the manufacture of trumpets. Our goal is to exceed every single customer's expectations, which is no easy feat. This is why we offer our 12-month guarantee rather than a return policy.

We would literally be out of business if we bought back all of our custom horns. How could we re-sell trumpets with personal messages, names and special art/designs? When we do take these custom instruments back on trade through our 12-month guarantee, we lose money due to the discounts required to sell a horn with custom options present. With our margins of around 10 to 15%, there is little room to negotiate the possibility of returns.

Some of you argue that online sales companies offer 90-day, 180-day or even longer return policies and that Harrelson should do the same. Please do not confuse us with a large corporation that purchases huge quantities of inventory for pennies on the dollar only to play the online discount numbers game. We are not a re-seller. We are not even a regular retailer. We are a full-service design, consulting and manufacturing firm made up of 4 people who will bend over backwards to satisfy your individual brass playing needs in exchange for a premium that we truly believe represents amazing value.

Did you know that we answer an average of 14 phone calls from clients daily? Please call us at 303.657.2747 with your order questions. We also offer an online chat system where you can ask us questions throughout the week. We typically field around 25-50 chat sessions per week. We respond to 400-500 social media messages from Instagram and Facebook monthly. We also answer approximately 700 emails every month so feel free to contact us at harrelsontrumpets@gmail.com. And we host 500 to 1000 visitors in our Denver shop and showroom locations every year. From these numbers, it is obvious that we are committed to serving our local, national and global customers 6 days a week.

WHY DID JOHN START THIS THREAD?

I'll get straight to the point. The OP needs money and he needs it fast. I specifically requested that he and I find a solution to his situation and leave the trumpet forums out of this, but he pushed forward with threats against my business, my reputation and even threats against me personally.

For these reasons, I would like everyone reading this to consider the following. I am very easy to work with if you simply pick up the phone and discuss your concerns and issues with me personally. Even if you have found yourself in a difficult financial situation due to your own personal spending actions, I'm here to offer any reasonable solutions at my disposal. My goal is to find a way to help each and every one of my clients have an amazing customer experience. I sincerely care about all of you as I have endured the real struggle of overcoming every type of performing challenge and I want to pass on my knowledge and potential solutions for your own success. I certainly do not want my customers to experience financial distress!

This particular customer has consumed over 20 hours of my personal time, which has further delayed custom trumpet orders, our weekly Trumpet Challenge contest on YouTube and numerous important projects.

Here is a summary of my communications with John, the OP...

March 10, 2018 - the OP chatted with us for approximately 30 minutes through our website asking specific questions about making the switch from a Bach trumpet to our VPS Summit. We advised setting up a new 5MM Modular Mouthpiece first to get started with Harrelson equipment before purchasing a trumpet. Approximately 5 hours later, the OP purchased the VPS Summit 4/11 trumpet in silver and a 5MM Kit for $7100 plus $12 Express overnight shipping/insurance.

March 22-29, 2018 - the OP contacted us via phone and email 5 times to adjust his mouthpiece setup upon which time he specifically told us that the Summit trumpet exceeded his expectations in every way.

May 24, 2018 - the OP contacted us through our website chat system once again giving your Harrelson Summit trumpet a glowing review, which was to be passed on to the entire Harrelson Team.

May 29, 2018 - the OP placed an order for more mouthpiece parts and again mentioned he was loving his trumpet.

June 29, 2018 - the OP expressed that he regrets asking if he can sell us his "awesome" VPS Summit trumpet for $5000 to pay personal bills. Christine responded letting him know that she would talk to me personally. However, this was amidst a 2-week period where most of our staff was on vacation so I did not get the message until over a week later.

July 4, 2018 - the OP emailed us asking if we could take his trumpet on consignment because he had unexpected personal issues and related bills. We recommended he sell his trumpet personally to receive the best possible financial outcome since the trumpet was purported to be in perfect condition.

July 10, 2018 - the OP emailed asking us to purchase his Harrelson Summit trumpet for $4000 due to the need to pay personal bills. We made specific recommendations to pursue selling it personally since we would likely clear much more than $4000 selling it himself. And we have a strict policy of not taking consignments or buying back used instruments since this does not align with our company mission. I personally explained that I did not feel comfortable purchasing the horn for $4000 and making a profit on his loss when he could likely sell it himself for $6000. I urged him to call me and I was prepared to make him an offer of $5500 to offset the discount I would need to offer on a used instrument.

July 11, 2018 - the OP changed his story claiming there was damage to his trumpet and that Harrelson was responsible for all damages and losses he may incur. He continued by threatening to sue us for the original purchase price due. I urged the OP to call me immediately so we could find a solution to his financial issues and address his claims that there was some kind of defect. Since he would not answer my calls and did not call me, I carefully explained the process of producing a CNC machined bell crook with laser welds, silver solder and soft solder via email. I also reminded him that every new trumpet we sell (including his) qualifies for our 12-month exchange policy and that I am happy to exchange or build a new horn for him at no charge so long as the trumpet was in original new condition.

July 12, 2018 - the OP opened a fraud case through his original payment provider against my company claiming that I sold him a "fake" Harrelson trumpet that was not made by my company. He added that the seam in the bell crook proves it is not a genuine Harrelson product. He then sent me numerous photos of his trumpet which clearly showed damage from using pliers or tools on the leadpipe, receiver and mouthpiece. In his fraud claim, he requested to KEEP THE TRUMPET and receive a FULL REFUND. And it was brought to my attention that he listed this trumpet on eBay with a Buy It Now price of $6000, which ends on July 16, 2018. I responded with further explanation and photos to educate him on the process by which we build our trumpets and I urged him once again to call me to find a resolution including buy-back options.

July 13-14, 2018 - the OP sent 13 unique, very long, emails typed in cap letters escalating his claims asserting that he intends to defame Harrelson Trumpets on Trumpet Herald, Trumpet Master and other social media sources. These emails went into great detail attacking my personal character, morality and lack of God in my life. On July 13, 2018 I made a written offer to the OP to buy back his VPS Summit trumpet for $5000 and explained that the price reflected the damage as evident in the photos he provided. I detailed the estimated repair costs and depreciation from re-selling a used trumpet with major repairs (strip plating, build new leadpipe, receiver, mouthpiece body, install new parts, prep for plating, ship to plating, 25% discount for re-sale), which exceeds $4000.

July 15, 2018 - the OP insisted that my offer was too low despite offering the same trumpet to me for $4000 just days earlier. He claimed that there should be no repairs and that the tool marks should, "easily buff out". He asserted that he has had several conversations with "experts in the industry" who assured him that, "Harrelson is trying to rip you off". He then demanded $6000 plus tax (he was not charged tax since he is out of state) claiming that the repairs should cost, "nothing" and that experts have told him buffing is the solution and that there should be no depreciation in re-selling his mint condition instrument. I responded by asking him to have his sources bring the trumpet back to original condition and to return the trumpet in MINT condition and we have a deal.

I will await his response and hopefully move forward with a resolution. I would have much rather paid the OP $5500 last week before I knew he was hiding extensive damage to the leadpipe, receiver and mouthpiece. It wouldn't be the first time someone misrepresented an exchange or return to Harrelson Trumpets and we would have absorbed the loss. This could have been resolved quickly if 1) he had answered his phone or 2) had called me as requested 14 times in the past week.

After reading this account, some of you will still insist that I am difficult to work with. Please spend 2 minutes putting yourself in my position. My team and I have gone to great lengths to help every single customer. We are four human beings giving 100% for your benefit. Our profit margins are very small compared to industry averages. We lead the industry in technology, design, manufacture, custom and standard options. We sincerely want each and every customer to love their Harrelson experience.

As much as I would love to spend my days answering every response to this thread, I must return to my work. I owe it to all of my customers to be as transparent as possible, which is always one of my goals. Please consider that hearsay on forums is just that, word of mouth opinions until verified. If you would like to verify something about Harrelson Trumpets or the way we do business, give us a call or stop into the shop and meet us. We love working with you providing the most innovative brass playing solutions available today. In reality, we are addicted to trumpets and anything related to trumpet performance. This passion shows in our products, service and updates throughout social media.

Sincerely honored to serve you,
Jason Harrelson
_________________
Harrelson Trumpets
www.whyharrelson.com

[FDC05]

I have purchased 2 horns directly from Jason and he was always great. I wound up selling those 2 horns. Those are the only horns I regret not keeping. They were fantastic (Bravura Bb and an HT3 C).

About a seam not being normal, and not on other horns.... if you have researched Jason's techniques, you would learn he has been machining leadpipes, bell braces, etc.... in 2 halves and welding them together. This is not done on any other horn, at least to my knowledge. Certainly not by production trumpets. So, no, you would likely not see that seam on another horn.

I can certainly understand being a frustrated customer, and taking to social media to get the attention you want. However, I think Jason has shown that this is on the OP... especially with his eBay posting. C'mon, man!
_________________
Mark

[Brad361]

[Brent]

Wow.

Pretty ugly situation. If Jason has some sort of paper trail to verify even half of his timeline, it's not cool what the OP is trying to do. The whole "lack of God in my (Jason's) life" is beyond ridiculous.

Regardless of what you think of Jason's horns, he doesn't deserve this. No one does. It's one of the reasons I don't buy or sell used equipment near as much as I used to: I don't need to deal with this sort of thing.

Brent S
_________________
Brent

[JasonHarrelson]

[Brad361]

[INTJ]

This issue could have easily been handled via the phone, e-mail, or PM. I had a Bravura built in 2010 or 2011. I played it for a year and a half and while in the end the horn was the wrong approach for me, it was a VERY high quality horn that was well built. Jason worked hard to help me even as he was struggling through some medical issues that I didn't find out about until much later.

If you want a horn that looks like a Bach or Yamaha, get a Bach or Yamaha.......................
_________________
Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel

Harrelson 5mm MP

[ljazztrm]

I’m a pro freelancer and I don’t think I’ve ever cleaned/polished the outside of my horn. It’s not that I don’t totally care how it looks. Like, if it was bright orange with yellow polka dots, I would feel pretty silly playing it! But I’m the type of guy who would go for a finish that is ‘low maintenance’..like a raw brass, or some of the retro-funky-antique type finishes that are out there today. I clean my whole horn (inside) once a month and the leadpipe/tuning slide/mouthpiece once a week. For me, it all comes down to how my horn sounds and the ease of play. I do have friends who like to keep their trumpets ‘like-new’ on the outside, and they usually prefer the shiny silver or gold plating. If I had a choice of a ’shiny’ plating, it would be nickel because it gives some ‘core quality’ to the sound I really dig for jazz.

I’ve played and owned a number of very good trumpets, but there are several that have stood out for me as an especially good sounding horn with a sound I really dug and a great ease of play. Fortunately, I own one of those now—the Lynnzhorn! The others that I never owned, but spent some time playing, that really made me take notice were a copper insulated Callet Jazz, a Tony Scodwell model trumpet, and a Harrelson Summit trumpet.

To Jason - you probably already know this but, just in case you don't, your horns have quite a good reputation here in the NYC area. Have you ever made a custom pocket trumpet for someone? Do you agree that a really good sounding pocket trumpet is harder to make because of all the many bends that have to go into the tubing? Best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

[Pops]

I bought a Harrelson Summit from Jason a couple of years ago.
He was a nice guy and I love the horn.
It filled a gap between the other 2 Bbs I use.
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com

[blbaumgarn]

Having read through many of the comments and looking at the pictures presented here it appears that the folks at Harrelson have done their level best to address the concerns the customer had. And, it looks and sounds like they tried to do it in a most professional manner. It seems an unsatisfied customer is trying to give Harrelson a black eye and it isn't working out so well for them!
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush