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Doc and Freddie Hubbard


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lakejw
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
If it makes you feel better, Freddie is 22 (almost 23) on Blues And The Abstract Truth. I think his first record is "Open Sesame", recorded in 1960. My favorite Freddie Hubbard recordings are Bill Evans "Interplay", Wayne Shorter "Speak No Evil", Herbie Hancock "Empyrean Isles", and Art Blakey "Mosaic". "Freddie Hubbard Live in Europe 1969" is another good one, as is V.S.O.P.

I think the craziest thing is that Freddie Hubbard and Booker Little played the section parts on Coltrane's "Africa/Brass". Too bad there aren't any trumpet solos on that album, but Coltrane's playing is unreal. One can only imagine the sessions at the Vanguard and Five Spot with Coltrane, Hubbard, and Little that never got onto tape.

This bootleg is mind-blowing. Some serious trumpet pyrotechnics!
https://youtu.be/b6CMX_VoRXE


Watching this bootleg now. Insane!
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rothman
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lakejw wrote:
..Not sure what you're really hearing to connect them, other than a fast tempo and a saturated, chorused recorded trumpet sound (popular in the CTI-era). Their articulation is completely different. Their concepts for improvising are virtually opposite.


Excellent discerning points on the thread. To correct one thing though in giving the impression, that these two players are 'cut from the same cloth' of which they most definitely are not. Just that on certain up tempo things, plus the fact that Doc in the middle register leaned in the direction of a darker sound, not that distant from Freddie's. The ability to smoothly connect or slur, 32nd note flurries of several bars length..can make you wonder a little bit. Especially, since that type of playing was not much expected of him.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lakejw wrote:
Hmm, I'm not so sure about a Doc - Freddie connection in terms of influence. Maybe they admired each other, that would be nice.

Freddie's style was pretty well established in his early 20's, another early record to check out is "Ready For Freddie." The idea that Doc influenced him is pretty far-fetched. Freddie's early style especially was much more Miles Davis/Lee Morgan/Clifford Brown influenced.

That aside, I'd be hard pressed to find two more different jazz trumpeters. Not sure what you're really hearing to connect them, other than a fast tempo and a saturated, chorused recorded trumpet sound (popular in the CTI-era). Their articulation is completely different. Their concepts for improvising are virtually opposite.


Actually I can't think of any instances of processed trumpet sound on Freddie's CTIs....maybe I missed some, but I hear pretty pure tone on all of them...maybe some very subtle reverb on Sky Dive....are you thinking about the Columbias which came later?

keith
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lakejw
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khedger wrote:
Actually I can't think of any instances of processed trumpet sound on Freddie's CTIs....maybe I missed some, but I hear pretty pure tone on all of them...maybe some very subtle reverb on Sky Dive....are you thinking about the Columbias which came later?

keith


Yea, the CTI sounds are pretty clean. They don't have crazy, warbling "effects" like you'll hear on some of the later stuff. But they definitely have reverb, and very likely a touch of chorus & compression, which fattens up the sound. Not enough that you'd say, "he's using a chorus effect," just enough to enhance the natural sound.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lakejw wrote:
khedger wrote:
Actually I can't think of any instances of processed trumpet sound on Freddie's CTIs....maybe I missed some, but I hear pretty pure tone on all of them...maybe some very subtle reverb on Sky Dive....are you thinking about the Columbias which came later?

keith


Yea, the CTI sounds are pretty clean. They don't have crazy, warbling "effects" like you'll hear on some of the later stuff. But they definitely have reverb, and very likely a touch of chorus & compression, which fattens up the sound. Not enough that you'd say, "he's using a chorus effect," just enough to enhance the natural sound.


Yes, I was just listening to some earlier tonight. I think when commenting on effects it's important (and your comments indicate that you understand what I'm about to say) to discern 'production effects' from 'performance effects' (these are my terms). Almost ALL recordings will have some effects applied by the recording and mastering engineers in order to create a nice, listenable mix. Some of the more noticeable ones are things like some reverb to sweeten, occasional delays, and more sublte ones like compression and eq. These are what I mean by 'production effects'.
However sometimes performers use effects rigs directly on their instrument to make creative sounds, like guitar players often do. Fuzz, wah wah, chorus, delay etc can be used with various settings and in various combinations to get interesting sounds. Some trumpet players have used these: Miles - wah wah and delay; Randy Brecker - distortion, delay, chorus, wah wah; and there many others.
So, to warp up. Most of Freddie's CTI records have 'production effects' on them, but he went through a period a little later, when recording for Columbia, where he used 'performance effects'.
And that's probably more than anybody wanted to hear me spew on the subject.....

keith
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Hornman#1955
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:19 am    Post subject: Doc Reply with quote

rothman wrote:
Below, just in terms of influencing him.

--- 2: 30

Link
I have always loved Doc..
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deleted_user_02066fd
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an old copy of Freddie's High Energy and he does use some mild effects on that album. If my memory is correct he used it on Stevie Wonder's Too High.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peanuts56 wrote:
I have an old copy of Freddie's High Energy and he does use some mild effects on that album. If my memory is correct he used it on Stevie Wonder's Too High.


Right. 'High Energy' - Columbia.


keith
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rothman
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phrasing the question differently...for the folks that heard him either in concert settings or other venue...not referring to Doc at his most potent moments, but some of his softer legato, medium forte middle register.

Though they are completely different musicians, does anyone notice a darker timbre that seems to match up quite close to Freddie Hubbard?

As opposed to Conrad Gozzo's sound.

Happy Holidays
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khedger
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
He just couldn’t do it to the high degree Freddie did but then I’ll bet Freddie didn’t read much either?? I don’t know. Doc was more technically oriented although Hubbard was a clean machine. Doc could do about anything and be very good at it all maybe Freddie was too but I’ve only heard him do jazz and that shows.
Rod


Just to get it on the record, Freddie could read anything. He was a master player. Just wanted to make note....

Keith
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