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Satchmo101
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Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 22
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 Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:43 pm Post subject: Quiet volume, regular playing in top register is working |
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Hi all,
Have been on lead trumpet with local big band for about 18 months and having previously been a cornet player had to work up my high register. After the summer break the MD wants to have a go at Macarthur Park so time for some serious dedicated range building !
I learnt the most from the James Morrison excellent video considering the physics of keeping "turning up the tap" and not making the aperture smaller and not pressing into face to hard. Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6K9RZyO6gc&t=0s&list=LLQk-UOIi53gyH75W9T7vldw&index=10. Really found this video useful which suggests playing regularly as Quiet as possible going up in arpeggios to the 5th.
Been concientious at this sometime twice per day and find I can now play through Maria and Macarthur at mp/mf.
Think that means these peices within my capability and I just need to strenghten chops so that increased volume doesn't force lips apart which Morrison mentions. Also he says that after a session you shouldn't have a ripped lip but the muscles around lips ache which is the case.
Previosuly did quite a lot of Maggio also and thinking of the vowel sounds I think helps.
One final thing is that the two best top note local player I know both started out on Eb Soprano Cornet with brass bands. this makes me think that playing in the register often is also part of the key to top range. Eb soprano can be asked to play nice sounding note to at least C (G on Bb) and top band above that.
Cheers
Mark |
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Quiet volume, regular playing in top register is working |
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| Satchmo101 wrote: |
One final thing is that the two best top note local player I know both started out on Eb Soprano Cornet with brass bands. this makes me think that playing in the register often is also part of the key to top range. Eb soprano can be asked to play nice sounding note to at least C (G on Bb) and top band above that. |
My experience, generally, is that very very few players start out on Sop (it's typically thought of as unsporting to give such a brutal instrument to a beginner)...
So I guess we're left with a chicken-egg thing - are sop players decent in the higher register because they're asked to do it a lot, or are they only sop players in the first place because they've got the skills to be?
(Fwiw, I think it's a little of each).
Ps: The High C on sop is a High F on Bb (not G) - I've had sop parts that go up to a written E (Bb: A) but these are not common.
PPs: A soprano cornet G is a Bb cornet/trumpet C, perhaps you just got your transposition backwards for a second? |
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Satchmo101
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Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Quiet volume, regular playing in top register is working |
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Yes I should have said they ended up on sop so maybe they were the best squeakers 
yes - got the transposition reversed. Remember I think having a C on Sop in Procession to the Minster which as you say would have been an F. Was more of a Bb player though despite stint on sop but could get an reliable D on cornet maybe Eb at a push.
Anyway just tried Maria full volume - not fully successful but wind back volume and getting genuine if quiet notes. even squeek out the B
btw aware that range is not the be all and end all but trying for a specifc goal here.
M |
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Dufcapers
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Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Saint Louis
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| I just watched that James Morrison 'tube. Fantastic stuff; thanks for pointing it out! |
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Satchmo101
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Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:11 am Post subject: |
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He's such a no nonsense Aussie isn't he and obviously got the brilliant playing ability to back it up. Seen him a number of times with brass bands - he seems to be able to play any instrument in the band and grabbed a tenor horn at one point and started playing like a demon on it
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Smith-Watkins Bb (ML) Professional Trumpet
Smith-Watkins Bb Professional Cornet
Conn Vintage One Flugelhorn |
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Quiet volume, regular playing in top register is working |
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| Satchmo101 wrote: | Hi all,
Have been on lead trumpet with local big band for about 18 months and having previously been a cornet player had to work up my high register. After the summer break the MD wants to have a go at Macarthur Park so time for some serious dedicated range building !
I learnt the most from the James Morrison excellent video considering the physics of keeping "turning up the tap" and not making the aperture smaller and not pressing into face to hard. Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6K9RZyO6gc&t=0s&list=LLQk-UOIi53gyH75W9T7vldw&index=10. Really found this video useful which suggests playing regularly as Quiet as possible going up in arpeggios to the 5th.
Been concientious at this sometime twice per day and find I can now play through Maria and Macarthur at mp/mf.
Think that means these peices within my capability and I just need to strenghten chops so that increased volume doesn't force lips apart which Morrison mentions. Also he says that after a session you shouldn't have a ripped lip but the muscles around lips ache which is the case.
Previosuly did quite a lot of Maggio also and thinking of the vowel sounds I think helps.
One final thing is that the two best top note local player I know both started out on Eb Soprano Cornet with brass bands. this makes me think that playing in the register often is also part of the key to top range. Eb soprano can be asked to play nice sounding note to at least C (G on Bb) and top band above that.
Cheers
Mark |
Question, What mouthpiece?
I too have spent considerable time behind the E Flat instrument but not the cornet. Instead I blow an early 1970's era Yamaha E Flat tpt. I truly believe that if a skilled trumpet player has a fair amount of experience on the E Flat that it can be a very valuable tool for passages where the the standard B Flat trumpet places lots of demands upon accuracy in the ujpper register.
The ability to transpose the B Fl part down to E Fl should first become a matter of routine. Although I suppose you could just write out those phrases you want to play on the E Fl. Then just paste the parts over the B Fl sections.
I did exactly this on a first cornet concert band piece written by Bernstein but only after several less than perfect attempts to play it on the standard B Fl. Let me tell ya though, I absolutely nailed the thing dead perfect on my E Flat! Making me wonder why the heck I waited over 40 years to start substituting my E Fl for the B Fl.
As for using the E Flat on lead or screech? It should work fine with some practice of course. But you might consider these modifications.
A. There can exist a wude variation in timbre from one E Flat tpt to the next. So when in doubt? Choose the E Fl with the biggest sound.
B. Use a mouthpiece with a very open back-bore. No smaller than a #24. Better yet go larger than the #23. Always have the throat opened up by a professional. Unless you're handy with tools yourself and have access to the proper equipment.
With a well matched "screamer" mouthpiece on a very open throat/back-bore combination the tone produced by an E Flat trumpet is indistinguishable from a good lead player blowing the B Fl horn. And with experience it's so much easier to blow it accurately and in tune.
One caution. Little tricks like playing ascending glissandos or "Doits" are a bit trickier on the E Flat. Because you're employing lower partials. The notes are farther apart. Making it a little trickier to blend in the fast upwards smear. Here is where a shallower cup allows an advantage
Ive also found that a steeper alpha angle combined with the shallow cup can greatly assist in certain upwards glissandos.
Conversely if you don't want to smear notes? But instead want them to "lock in"? Well the ordinary E Flat horn is tailor made for this. Just use a mouthpiece with the same open back-bore but with a standard alpha angle.
I never use a sharp inner rim."bite" because it tends to cut my chops up. Even if I avoid arm pressure like the plague. However if you can use a more "Bach" like bite? It'll definitely aid in accuracy and security. At least until your upper lip goes numb and bleeds lol...
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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LSOfanboy
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Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:20 pm Post subject: Re: Quiet volume, regular playing in top register is working |
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| Lionel wrote: |
As for using the E Flat on lead or screech? It should work fine with some practice of course. But you might consider these modifications.
A. There can exist a wude variation in timbre from one E Flat tpt to the next. So when in doubt? Choose the E Fl with the biggest sound.
B. Use a mouthpiece with a very open back-bore. No smaller than a #24. Better yet go larger than the #23. Always have the throat opened up by a professional. Unless you're handy with tools yourself and have access to the proper equipment.
With a well matched "screamer" mouthpiece on a very open throat/back-bore combination the tone produced by an E Flat trumpet is indistinguishable from a good lead player blowing the B Fl horn. And with experience it's so much easier to blow it accurately and in tune.
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Everyone is more than entitled to their own opinion and individuality, its one of the great things about music!
Personally, I do not agree that an Eb trumpet should be used by a lead player unless the situation demands a 'classical' sound, which is incredibly rare. Even with large-bell Eb trumpets the sound always has a lighter and more delicate timbre than a strong lead player on Bb trumpet. In these very unusual 'classical sound' situations I would elect to use a Piccolo rather than an Eb (one example of this is the piece 'Saeta' from 'Sketches of Spain' where I find the trumpet fanfare works well on Piccolo A (its just an F major arpeggio then) which also fits the fanfare sound that Gil Evans was looking for).
I also believe at the point where a professional lead player would start to want more secure range, the Eb offers no support at all. A double A (which corresponds to a high E on the Eb trumpet) is definitely not made any easier by the smaller trumpet and is noticeably less open and powerful than the equivalent pitch on Bb trumpet.
With all that said; its the result that is most important. I think that pulling out an Eb trumpet on a Lead trumpet gig will raise eyebrows (and possibly start some questions from any testosterone-fuelled challengers in the section) but if you sound technically and stylistically impressive then, for the most part, people will accept it.
People are more than welcome to disagree with my statement!
Thanks |
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Satchmo101
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Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:07 am Post subject: |
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Hi some interesting comments but in OP I was pondering if exposure to regular high note playing e.g. soprano cornet playing, makes a good lead player. It's sort of nature vs nurture argument. Someone raised the notion that people might be placed onto sop cornet because they are good at top notes which is more on the nature side I guess.
Anyway the best lead trumpet players I know on the local scene were all really great sop players so I was wondering how much of there capability was due to natural top note talent and how much was due to regular top register playing - probably a bit of both?
I play lead on my Bb Smith-Watkins ML Trumpet with a Lead/Studio Smith-Watkins ML Mouthpiece. Currently working every night to try and get that dam A in MacArthur Park - The missus is not a fan or the local cats
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x9ret
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Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 517
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Quiet volume, regular playing in top register is working |
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| Satchmo101 wrote: |
One final thing is that the two best top note local player I know both started out on Eb Soprano Cornet with brass bands. this makes me think that playing in the register often is also part of the key to top range. Eb soprano can be asked to play nice sounding note to at least C (G on Bb) and top band above that.
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Yes it helps. I was on soprano for years. You can't cheat on soprano, or piccolo trumpet. Can't really use a bad technique and force something on the instrument or on your face to make it work and expect to play longer than 15 minutes. Also in a brass band you're on your own and will struggle to delegate parts to others. I must say that only rarely did soprano parts go above Bb in a brass band, even for championship section test pieces.
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Seymor B Fudd
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Quiet volume, regular playing in top register is working |
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| LSOfanboy wrote: | | Lionel wrote: |
As for using the E Flat on lead or screech? It should work fine with some practice of course. But you might consider these modifications.
A. There can exist a wude variation in timbre from one E Flat tpt to the next. So when in doubt? Choose the E Fl with the biggest sound.
B. Use a mouthpiece with a very open back-bore. No smaller than a #24. Better yet go larger than the #23. Always have the throat opened up by a professional. Unless you're handy with tools yourself and have access to the proper equipment.
With a well matched "screamer" mouthpiece on a very open throat/back-bore combination the tone produced by an E Flat trumpet is indistinguishable from a good lead player blowing the B Fl horn. And with experience it's so much easier to blow it accurately and in tune.
|
Everyone is more than entitled to their own opinion and individuality, its one of the great things about music!
Personally, I do not agree that an Eb trumpet should be used by a lead player unless the situation demands a 'classical' sound, which is incredibly rare. Even with large-bell Eb trumpets the sound always has a lighter and more delicate timbre than a strong lead player on Bb trumpet. In these very unusual 'classical sound' situations I would elect to use a Piccolo rather than an Eb (one example of this is the piece 'Saeta' from 'Sketches of Spain' where I find the trumpet fanfare works well on Piccolo A (its just an F major arpeggio then) which also fits the fanfare sound that Gil Evans was looking for).
I also believe at the point where a professional lead player would start to want more secure range, the Eb offers no support at all. A double A (which corresponds to a high E on the Eb trumpet) is definitely not made any easier by the smaller trumpet and is noticeably less open and powerful than the equivalent pitch on Bb trumpet.
With all that said; its the result that is most important. I think that pulling out an Eb trumpet on a Lead trumpet gig will raise eyebrows (and possibly start some questions from any testosterone-fuelled challengers in the section) but if you sound technically and stylistically impressive then, for the most part, people will accept it.
People are more than welcome to disagree with my statement!
Thanks |
Love this discussion! Recently my not that good big band has chosen to play a (lowered - concert key Bb) arrangement (done by our eminent leader)version of Penny Lane. So suddenly I pull out my Selmer (1974) D/Eb trumpet and play the piccola licks, with the Eb slide, with the Stork SM VMS6. Cuts like a laserbeam through the band, clearly a very different sound than previously produced on my lead Bb trumpet. Brigther, tighter, even more clear. Anyway highest note high C.
I used to play the soprano in my brass band and always found it much more easy to switch between soprano and lead trumpet than Bb cornet and trumpet.
By the way I´ve recently changed my routine - now I practice mostly on the trumpet (Stork VM6) and cornet (Wick Ultra 7C) only on brassband rehearsal days. Some time ago I posted on the negative effects of excessive Bb cornet practicing followed by lead trumpet playing; it was as if I had lost the bearings to the high register.
Cornet playing, so far, only seems to benefit from this change. But this is brand new to me - I´ve struggled with this for decades.
And yes, I think that high register practice is not only useful but absolutely necessary if you want to play high!
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Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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