By ear or by theory

[Tivolian]

Brief context: I'm a "comeback" player having taken >40 years off after high school and am now about a year into real daily practice. I'm mostly working on my chops (Caruso), basic skills (Clarke), things like Bousquet and Concone, and a bit of improv with a local brass band. I really want to learn to improvise better to simple jazz and blues progressions. So, the rub is that I've not had any music theory. Would it be beneficial to go back to basics and know my scales, arpeggios, etc so well that they're intuitive? It's hard to imagine that I could learn this so deeply (at 63 years old) that I don't even think but just know where I am and what notes fit. It would be like thinking of how to spell words when I'm in the middle of an impassioned sentence. The alternative it seems is to develop my ear, so I can "hear" what I want to play -- the equivalent of just talking without knowing how to spell a word. My ear is decent and hopefully I could improve it through diligent work. Hence my "by ear or by theory" thing. Or is it some combination? I would really love to hear thoughts by jazz trumpeters who can relate to the distant past when they must have figured out their path. Many thanks, in advance.
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Tivolian

[Turkle]

When I decided to really learn to improvise, the first thing I did was learn my theory. I obsessively drilled all my scales and arpeggios in all modes and all keys. The most important book for me was "Patterns for Jazz" by Jerry Coker.

Once I had all of the above completely nailed, then I was able to "forget the theory" and really improvise by ear. You have to train your ear to "hear" the theory naturally, and you do that by drilling it over and over again.

And of course, you need to not only drill your scales/arpeggios, but also jazz language you rip from records.

My particular advice is to learn your theory - you have to know what a G7 is and why/how it resolves to a CMaj7, and most importantly how it sounds when it does resolve. But then you can kind of forget about it when you're improvising and just hear the lines you want to play over those changes.

When I'm playing over a tune I know really well, like All The Things You Are or something, I don't have to think about what chord is coming up, I can just play by ear. But the reason I'm there is because I first learned all my theory and memorized the changes and practiced it for many years. So first theory, then eventually you can just rely on your ear.

But! If you don't want to do all that, just learn the blues in all 12 keys - that will take you surprisingly far!
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Curry 3.

[EdMann]

This was me 10 years ago, at 51, just into my comeback, little jazz improv skills beyond playing along with Steely Dan records. So I jumped in with both feet and did the following:

- CONSTANT listening. In the car, at home, going to sleep, jazz, jazz, jazz.
- learned the heads to every tune I could find, and found WAY more similarities than not.
- researched the basic chord progressions of jazz: ii-V7-i, blues, rhythm changes... most jazz doesn't vary from that.
- learned every scale/arpeggio I could to make the improv fit the language I was hearing-- mostly diminished, half diminished, alterned scales, tritone subs, various pentatonics, fourth and third exercises,and jumped into Aebersolds, transcriptions and jazz groups to work it all out.
- practiced my ass off

So, a little theory goes a long way if you incorporate into a language that's sounds like jazz. Now, that's about all I want to play! And I was the one in college who couldn't improv at ALL. Enjoy, most of all!

ed

[Croquethed]

I found my awakening was definitely a combination, and as Turkle mentioned, was greatly facilitated by concentrating on the blues. Once you figure out a 12-bar I-IV-V blues, and can translate that into any I-IV-V progression, so much becomes clear.

Also, begin to think of notes in any combination, arpeggios or scales, in terms of numbers. That makes it easier to move from key to key.

[kehaulani]

Are they mutually exclusive?

But don't get ahead of yourself. Learn by ear and when you get stuck look to theory to find out why. You need to know what you don't know to get ahead but never lose track that jazz is an aural art.

Do you know Aebersold Vols. 1, 2, 3 and 54? Give them a try.
http://www.jazzbooks.com/jazz/category/aeball
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[jhatpro]

It’s really helpful to mentally count bars when youkre listening to jazz. Also listen intensively to the rhythm section and take special note of what the drummer is doing to stake out the form.
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Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
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[PH]

[adam.arredondo]

I like to use an analogy similar to the one you gave with spoken language. Think of improvising within the chord changes of a tune like answering questions about a given subject. Musical phrases are like sentences which must be delivered (phrased) right to give the correct meaning and be taken in the way you meant—you've got to put the right accent on the right syllable/note.

In spoken language you have to know the meaning of the words you're saying to answer the question asked. In music improvisation you have to know (aurally or by music theory) how the notes you play relate to, or sound over, the underlying chord in order to (1) choose whether to create harmonically consonant or dissonant sounds (2) string notes and licks together to create phrases that have a logical flow.

Jazz Path has a great free podcast aptly titled Constructing Melodic Jazz Improvisation that takes you through these kinds of concepts with concrete steps & exercises to follow.

Hope this helps!
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Adam Arredondo
New Orleans
www.adamarredondo.com

[Richard III]

[robbo]

I ran a masterclass a few weeks back with a group of 20 or so students of varying levels of improv experience. (Most with none).

I was blown away at how in only 30 mins these kids who'd never read a chord symbol in their life could make their way through a blues progression using a basic lick or two that I gave them based around the 3rd of the chord. (The licks weren't written down for them, they had to think what the 3rd of the chord was and the lick then followed). The most important aspect of that was that they were acknowledging the chord symbol, and the listener could hear the chord changes in their solos. In contrast, the kids who were "already playing jazz" bluffed their way around the blues, basically using one lick, and no acknowledgement of the changes.

I'm quite passionate about starting with a somewhat "theoretical" approach. Not so much learning too much harmony and scales early in the process, but working on basic motifs (licks) focusing on key notes in the chord. The ear will follow in due course, and you can work on stuff to improve on that too.

I put a little clip a while back that demonstrates this better, with some bits to play along to if you'd like a peek.

https://youtu.be/_TDbJ5_7pj0

Rob
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Currently staff arranger for the band of the South Australia Police.
Berklee College of Music, Elder Conservatorium Adelaide, Australia.
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[MrOlds]

We learn to speak in complete sentences long before we learn to spell. But we communicate so much more deeply after we’ve read widely.

Personally I tune out if I hear someone diagramming sentences (musically speaking).

[Anthony Miller]

As a long-time wannabe improviser the key to the door for me was watching this video (and #3, the follow-up) from Jeff Antoniuk on YouTube. https://youtu.be/LPQrroOJcAk