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Unwanted Split Tones


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16mguilette
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:32 am    Post subject: Unwanted Split Tones Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

Over the past several months I've been recording myself playing, and almost every time I hear myself producing an unwanted split tone under the note.

When I approach notes above the staff, the tone become an octave under the desired note; otherwise (all the way down to low C sharp), it's usually the lower partial. I can't (or can only just barely) hear this when I'm playing, but it really sticks out on recordings.

About me: I've been playing for close to three years, but I play a lot. I moved up to a 1C mouthpiece and have had no complaints, but I started noticing this around the time that I switched. I don't want to switch off; I love this piece. I have always been a tension player, especially for the first few years of playing, and I suspect that this is contributing to my problem here. I play slightly to the right (no desire to shift to the middle, and my teacher doesn't think it's a problem), and I play with my bottom lip tucked slightly in (this I do not like and need to change; may contribute to this problem). I do study with a private teacher when I'm in school, but that's a month away.

I'll link some recordings that I've spliced together into one file. Any insight would help. Thank you!

Matt

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dSf1zAQoW8s8SC0MbdJNn0_dMzSaRmg-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=19VfdLWcKIGW7T6MmliwIXbbc-mmLrzWH
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear what you're talking about. There are a few possibilities in mouthpiece design that could be causing it, but first:

How long have you been playing the 1C?
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16mguilette
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been on the 1C (Bach) since April or so. Previously I played a Yamaha 14B4GP, for about a year and a half. I started on a Bach 7C in November of 2016.

Thanks for taking a listen!
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. One factor that can make articulation less clear or certain is a rounded rim with a softer bite (inner edge). As I recall, the Bach 1C rim is rounder than the Yamaha rim you were using, and has a softer bite.

Another question: Does this happen all the time or is this something that creeps into your playing? If so, after how long?
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16mguilette
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because I can't really hear it when I play, I'm not sure how often it happens. I do know that it's present in every recording I make of myself.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracking.

I asked about whether not it starts immediately or gradually comes on as that could point to an endurance issue or the cup being too wide. A 1C is not a small mouthpiece by any means.

If the split attacks started when you changed mouthpieces several months ago and the issue hasn't resolved, it points to the 1C, despite how much you love it, not being a correct fit.

Something with a flatter rim may be better, like a Yamaha or Schilke 16C4, or one of the Schilke Symphony Series. The rims are supportive, they have generous cup volumes.

But I would be remiss if I didn't give you probably the most commonly given piece of advice on this forum: Ask your teacher. Keep with what you're playing and see if your teacher can either assign material that solves the issue or help you select something more suitable.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A double buzz is concentrated in the lower lip. It is an issue of the positioning of the lower lip. It could be caused by a weakness in the lower lip or a fundamental mis-positioning of the lower lip. In either case the lower lip picks up its own set of vibrations either due to an inability to keep the lower lip firm or due to its interference with the vibrations of the upper lip.

If this started occurring with the change in your mouthpiece it would seem that the mouthpiece is contributing to the problem by creating an environment in which the effects of weakness or mis-positioning are more apparent aurally.

Did you have the same problem with your prior mouthpiece?
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other observation: If you can't hear it as you play and only notice it when you hear recordings it may not be a double buzz at all. When someone has a double buzz they can usually hear it and feel it while playing. A double buzz is typically an octave below the primary note so if that's what you're hearing it may technically be a double buzz.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
A double buzz is concentrated in the lower lip. It is an issue of the positioning of the lower lip. It could be caused by a weakness in the lower lip or a fundamental mis-positioning of the lower lip. In either case the lower lip picks up its own set of vibrations either due to an inability to keep the lower lip firm or due to its interference with the vibrations of the upper lip.

If this started occurring with the change in your mouthpiece it would seem that the mouthpiece is contributing to the problem by creating an environment in which the effects of weakness or mis-positioning are more apparent aurally.

Did you have the same problem with your prior mouthpiece?


This assumes that the OP is a downstream player, which not everyone is. Without direct observation such an assumption is risky, which is why I didn't even get into it.
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16mguilette
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Tpt_Guy:

Thank you for the thoughts. To add to my response, it's present as soon as I start playing. I don't really get a chance to practice more than 20 or 30 minutes at a time, and it's present in recordings from anywhere in that period. I do have an hour to hour and a half concert twice a week for the summer, but I have yet to record myself after those gigs (which feel fine on the chops).

To HERMOKIWI:

I don't hear it in recordings on my old piece, no. I did have problems in the upper register (only up to C above the staff, the effective top of my range) that my teacher suspected was because I pull my bottom lip in. I used to pull it in even more as I went higher; I've been working on curtailing that.

General:

If I'm being honest, I'm not really sure what a downstream player is or whether I am one. I do know that my embouchure is primarily upper-lip, especially since I have had the habit of pulling the bottom in and stiffening it.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keeping the bottom lip pulled in is not necessarily a bad thing for tone production or for range. There are many approaches that work depending on the player.

If you didn't have the problem with your old mouthpiece that indicates your new mouthpiece is contributing to create the problem in some way. Why don't you go back to your previous mouthpiece? What influenced you to change mouthpieces?
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16mguilette
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to change mouthpiece because on the last one I was having intonation and tone issues that went away on the new one. When I go back to the old mouthpiece, I now hear the undertone and still have the intonation and tone issues from before. So, the new mouthpiece brought out something in my playing that is now there on the others too.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is in the two clips is not a double buzz. So that issue is done and dusted.

You really need to pick up the phone and call your teacher if you can. They are the person to tell you the main issue, apart from a airball notes is the start of your phrase. The first note of the breath is not clearly articulated. Then you take a breath, and the first note is again not clearly articulated.

The simplistic approach is to stop playing licks and start to practise start a note. You only need to dial it in each day once you get the hang of it. Here's what I do.

1. Breath attacks. Poo attacks to be precise, so the lips start with the air movement. If they don't, one needs to make them start with the tongue, which is not ideal.

2. create an attack exercise. Something like:

trumpet on lips
breathe in
tongue a single note for a second or so
stop (without using your tongue)
remove trumpet from lips

repeat over and over. You can do scales, the same note, whatever you like. The Scheubruk books have one where you expand the pitch by a semitone, starting on middle B. somewhere along the way, we all find a note which won't speak well and that is where the focus needs to be.

Hope that helps a little...

cheers

Andy
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16mguilette
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again. I spent about 15 minutes just now working on hoo attacks, striving for (and falling short of) immediacy of sound. I suppose now may be a good time to mention that I cannot articulate with a poo, or at least not intentionally.
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solo soprano
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

16mguilette wrote:
I spent about 15 minutes just now working on hoo attacks, striving for (and falling short of) immediacy of sound.


Friend, here's a Bill Knevitt exercise you may find useful.

Moisten your lips and press them together, not pinched. Take a big comfortable breath, chest up and blow using the "HEE" attack, striving to make the attack with no tongue as clear as you can. The air stream must be fast, like a bullet. Then when you add the tongue to this type blowing, you will have a clear attack that has a full sound at any dynamic level.
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TrumpetDan79
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the OP, let me add an another option:

Do you notice your jaw and cheek muscles are stiff? What happens is the muscles will start bringing everything UP a bit too much, and the vibrating surface is choked. The bottom lip is typically the culprit.

For some modern pieces, we create split tones by bringing the aparatus up slightly to get both lips vibrating, essentially creating 2 apertures. So, if we reverse the process, it should settle that down a bit.

Here is a mini perscription to check for a couple issues:

1. Open wide saying AHHH, and lightly hold that position. Then take your hands and place them on your cheeks like you are going to make an "OH NO" face, haha.

2. Now, lightly pull DOWNWARD with your hands while maintaing the AHH position. Notice the cheek area enjoying a nice stretch. Repeat this 3 times at 20 seconds and remember to breath and relax.

Wait for about 5 minutes, go do something else, then come back to the trumpet. How is it now? Better or the same?

If it's better, great, it's an easy fix. If it is the same, you might have developed a poor reflex that needs to be practiced out. There is an exercise from Stamp (not in the book) that can help this, but please try this first.

Stretching is just as important as lifting in the "gym," so after a hard day, stretch a little. Our warmdown REALLY determines the next day's warmup.

All for now.

PS, after listening to the recordings, there are a number of things observed. If you want more info, just DM me.
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Last edited by TrumpetDan79 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

16mguilette wrote:
I wanted to change mouthpiece because on the last one I was having intonation and tone issues that went away on the new one. When I go back to the old mouthpiece, I now hear the undertone and still have the intonation and tone issues from before. So, the new mouthpiece brought out something in my playing that is now there on the others too.

It's commonly held that large mouthpieces have larger sweet spots and in some ways are more forgiving. So you may be liking the big piece because it's masking a problem that really ought to be addressed. It's my sense that relatively few people need to play a 1C. And a good number of players like them even though they introduce compromises in other areas.

There's no obvious reason why the Yamaha 14B4GP should be causing the problems you mention. This contributes to my sense that you may have issues that might be better addressed than going to such a big piece.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooooooh... Cheiden makes a good point! It takes more control of less muscle to play well on a smaller mpc, and on a larger one, you have more muscle to, well, muscle.

I noticed to say you worked on hoo attacks and say you can't get the poo type. Back to the room and work on them, and MAKE them work. It will take time and some readjustment of how you set things, but it might, just might help a lot more than continuing on with the same thing which is not...

cheers

Andy
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: Unwanted Split Tones Reply with quote

16mguilette wrote:
About me: I've been playing for close to three years, but I play a lot. I moved up to a 1C mouthpiece and have had no complaints, but I started noticing this around the time that I switched.


I have the same issue when I play larger mouthpieces, including the Bach 1C, especially when I am practicing a lot. I think, at least in my case, the very low alpha angle of that mouthpiece as it comes off the rim (making the mouthpiece more U shaped then V shaped), contributes to the problem. While that low alpha angle makes attacks wonderfully easy, it also seems to me to allow a little too much space and cup volume for my lips and as a result, I get that split tone sometimes, especially if I play a high note such as a High C and then immediately tongue a note in the staff between low C and middle C - the lower note will tend to split with the octave below sounding as well.

If I play on a 1C or a 1X and am practicing and/or performing a lot the problem can become very pronounced. But not as much when I play on a 1X rim mated to a 1B underpart, or a 1X rim mated to a 1-1/4C underpart. These were the mouthpieces I used to play on for orchestral style music and what I was using back when I auditioned for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Though the problem tended to only happen when I had practiced more than I usually did, I did find that no specific technique or practice exercise and no specific manipulation of my lips was helpful in preventing the problem. But the problem only happened for me with the bigger mouthpieces.

Since then, I've downsized a bit. The Rim I use now for orchestral style playing is a copy of Arturo Sandoval's Mt Vernon 3C rim, and I mate it to either an older Elkhart Bach 1-1/2C underpart with a #22 throat and a large Symphonic style backbore (actually a little bigger than the Bach #24 backbore), or a Bach 3B underpart with a #22 throat and a #24 backbore. These are slightly smaller in diameter than the Back 1 sized rims, and with their slightly smaller cup diameters and slightly higher alpha angles, the split tone problem I have with the 1-sized mouthpieces ceases to exist.

As a cheap fix you might try switching to a stock Bach 1-1/4C, 1-1/2C or 3B, and see if this helps alleviate the problem.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Short version of the above:

It's probably that 1C mouthpiece. I have the same issue when I try to play that model or similar mouthpieces. Try a Bach 1-1/4C, Bach 1-1/2C or Bach 3B and see if that fixes the issue. For me it does, instantly.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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