Weight and Compression

[Dufcapers]

Here's a question for the hive; what are your thoughts on weight gain/loss and the compression therein as it affects range and power?

As you gain weight and your innards are surrounded by fat, do you think/feel that it brings with it more compressed air with less effort? You now have less space to cover before you are pushing on your lungs with your ab muscles. What used to take a lot of pushing, takes less - therefore with the same effort you are getting more pressure and faster air.

If that is true, the opposite is true as well then - as you lose weight, you have to work harder to bring the same compression level to your lungs.

Discuss.

[LSOfanboy]

Hi,

It’s a fascinating question, and I would be really interested to hear other people’s thoughts on the matter.

I have thought about this question for many years and always wondered whether gaining some weight would aid in compression (although I have played lead trumpet professionally so it’s not like I have a problem producing compression as it is).

On balance I feel like compression comes from the developed strength of our external and internal intercostal muscles, coupled with a balanced aperture and supple embouchure to produce ‘high’ notes. Fat does really affect this equation, it’s simply an irrelevant factor as it does not increase our capacity and neither does it serve any purpose in the constricting motion of the intercostals. I would be inclined to believe that producing high levels of compression is a result of disciplined practice (‘training’ if you will) rather than body type or shape.

I also think that there are a number of players (although I do acknowledge they are probably in the minority) who do not carry a lot of excess weight but achieve ample amounts of compression. Here is a list off the top of my head:

‘Lead and commercial’
-Vizzutti
-Louis Dowdeswell (granted maybe he’s put a bit on since school)
-Jon Lewis
-Gary Grant

‘Classical’
-Chris Martin
-Tom Hooten
-Phil Cobb
-Maurice Murphy (before he passed)
-Wynton (whichever category you would put him)
-Hakan Hardenberger
-Alison Balsom
-Paul Mayes (there are some unbelievable videos of him on YouTube)

Anyway, a great thread and I am very happy to be contradicted or corrected by anyone else. This is the place for discussion!

Thanks

Edit: how crazy of me to forget to mention:
-Adam Rapa!!!
-Ashlin Parker
-Ruben Simeo

[Dufcapers]

Oh, most definitely I would agree that training can get you all the compression you'll ever need. I'm definitely not advocating a 'Twinkie Binge' for increasing range.

Simply voicing an opinion, and hopefully started some discussion on a theory that I've had for some years based on personal experience. A theory I've never heard voiced in all my years of study of the instrument I might add.

I started out skinny in my early years, as I'm sure most of us do, and gained some weight along the way. It seemed as I gained weight, I gained power and even a little range. Then more recently, in my 40s, I'm losing some weight and range at the same time. (Could be coincidence based on OTHER issues in my playing over the past 2 weeks; but I've lost a full 3rd of range!)

Hopefully this will open a discussion and we can put down some theories about it for others to learn and prepare for what can happen if you decide to lose/gain any weight.

[mm55]

Which of the dozen or so various definitions of "compression" are you referring to?
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[Dufcapers]

Compression to push faster air from your lungs. Sorry, guess I wasn't very clear with that.

[cbtj51]

[Robert P]

I don't think being in better shape will ever work against you. As an anecdotal example I'd estimate Maynard must have gained over 100 lbs from his youth, his playing in his later heftier years wasn't what it had been in his slimmer, younger days.

Doc was always slim, he never had a shortage of power. He had more range than Al Hirt who was probably twice his mass.
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[Pete]

[Dufcapers]

A couple of you are missing the point here....

I'll agree that you can get compression through training, I said as much already. And all of these cats did so. Hell, everyone does to a certain degree.

But can the effort required for you to get X amount of compression change as your body changes.

To dismiss this offhandedly and point at someone else and say "look they did it!" seems awfully flippant and dismissive. Sure they did, but if Vizzuti all of the sudden gained 50 lbs; would the effort required for him to play the same, stay the same? Maynard is a fine example someone pointed out that as he gained weight, he lost power and accuracy; but we don't know the whole story there - was weight gain the ONLY factor, or were there other factors at work in his later life?

Our instrument is a very physical one, and to assume with such wild abandon that our body size/shape/make-up doesn't affect our playing at all seems rather irresponsible, bordering on willful ignorance.

I'm not saying it's the ONLY factor, but another factor to put on the list of things that can impact your playing.

[Pete]

You asked to discuss this. The answer is still no. Not out of ignorance as you say, but out of knowledge of how it is done. And to suggest that it is willful ignorance? How about you coming up with factual info to the contrary.

I am not trying to get into a p***ing contest with you. You do need to , however, be less judgmental and insulting when you have an answer that you don't want to hear.

Pete

[Dufcapers]

I'm not a biologist and don't claim to be one; but common sense points me to the fact that our instruments are physical in nature, and anything that changes in our bodies would affect change to the ability to play it.

You have a hangnail on your TOE and it'll affect your playing if you can't stop thinking about it.

I'm merely suggesting that with all the workings of our lungs and surrounding musculature; being overweight, or losing a bunch of weight, seems like it should affect how well you can bring air compression to bear.

And simply saying: "No, no effect. See those guys are skinny" isn't exactly discussing.

[B. Scriver]

A really decent blog post from John Almeida regarding what he went through with weight loss and trumpet playing:

Weight Loss and its effect on my Trumpet Playing By: John Almeida

Deciding to become healthy was a major life change for me. At age 61, I weighed 266 lbs. and my height is 6’ 1 ½’ tall. My excess weight grew into a burden upon my health and I decided to alter my food consumption and eating habits. One year ago, my wife and I joined Weight Watchers Online and this decision has helped me to shed 81 lbs. and I feel so much better about my health. I have increased energy, especially when physically active. Who would have thought that becoming physically healthy would have an adverse effect upon my trumpet playing?

Nothing significantly changed in my playing until I lost approximately 50 lbs. About that point in the weight loss, I began to notice that my playing endurance started to decline a bit sooner than usual and that I was working a bit harder while playing in the upper register. It seemed that my sound had begun to lose a considerable amount of color and resonance. These issues became more pronounced as I lost more weight, especially as I grew close to my goal weight of 185 lbs. It seemed as if I had lost cushion in my upper lip. In addition, my lips would spread as I played at loud volumes, which resulted in no sound coming out. I couldn’t determine what might be causing these issues – maybe I had changed something in the way I was playing or had somehow developed some incorrect playing habits. But I just couldn’t figure out what the problem was.

I had lost 81 lbs. PLUS a Perfect 4th of my upper register – no High F’s or above! High D’s became uncertain, as did playing for a number of hours before becoming fatigued. In May 2013 I was scheduled to perform two solos with a high school band. One of the pieces was the first movement of the Neruda Concerto for Trumpet. I always perform this piece on Eb trumpet and NEVER have difficulties getting through it. I had reached a point where I could no longer be sure of playing any of the higher pitches with consistency. The second piece was Leroy Anderson’s Trumpeter’s Lullaby and the same issues presented themselves in this piece; which only ascends to a High A. I was within two weeks of the first rehearsal and was considering canceling the appearance. I turned to Gary Radtke and Brian Scriver at GR Technologies for help.

I’ve been playing Gary’s custom mouthpieces for close to twenty years and he knows my playing and teaching ideologies very well. I explained the predicament I was in and Gary understood right away. As it turned out, he knew of players that had experienced the same problems as a result of considerable weight loss. In fact, Brian Scriver, who is a fabulous lead trumpet player, had experienced the exact same issues as I. After discussing the problems and undergoing a “Face Time” video conference with Brian, he and Gary determined that some modifications needed to be made to my 66.5M GR mouthpiece.

Gary made the new mouthpiece immediately and shipped it over night. When it arrived the next day, I played my regular warm-up routine on it and I instantly noticed a huge difference in response and sound quality. When I began playing the Neruda, it was just like the “old me”. No problems with attacks, response, endurance, or upper register playing.

The same was true with the Leroy Anderson composition. I knew that this was not going to be the only step in recovering what I had lost, but with Brian and Gary’s understanding and guidance, I knew that I was going to OK. I went to Key West the next week, where I played four rehearsals and a concert – all without any problems what so ever!!!

At Gary and Brian’s suggestion, I have begun weekly sessions with a qualified personal trainer whose husband happens to be a wonderful trumpet player. She totally understands my predicament and works on building my core strength, as well as my overall physical strength. She agreed with Gary and Brian that as I lost weight, I also lost muscle strength and tone. As a result, my breathing and my ability to move air correctly had weakened significantly. My trainer says that my physical health and strength is improving each week. I can’t believe that I am able to perform each exercise so consistently and with greater ease as each week passes.

I am happy to report that I am definitely on the mend and those diminished abilities are consistently improving. I have Gary Radtke and Brian Scriver to thank for helping me to find my way back.

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com

[MF Fan]

I think to theorize weight gain is a source of greater compression is to confuse correlation and causation, assuming the weight is primarily in the form of fat. People typically gain weight as they age. If you're a dedicated trumpet player you're also developing/progressing through practice as you age. In this example it's the dedicated practice that increases your potential to create compression, you just happen to be gaining weight at the same time. IMO, the more fit you are the better you're going to play. John Almeida's blog is another example, he didn't lose his range because he lost weight per se, he lost range because some of the weight he lost was in the form of muscle, which reduced he potential for creating compression and/or other muscular potential throughout his playing apparatus. If you're carrying extra body weight in the form of fat, more of your energy is going to moving that weight around, vs. putting it to work in creating compression. On the other hand, if the gain in weight is due to increased muscle mass, you're likely increasing your ability to generate compression.
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[cbtj51]

[LSOfanboy]

I think that we should be careful not to assume the stories of 'x player lost range when they lost weight' (of which there are many) mean that whomever it was lost compression necessarily. Often weight loss means a change in our face, and indeed of the lip tissue too. This can often have a detrimental effect on playing- simply because we are playing on a lip surface that is substantially difference to our norm.

In the story above about John, I think the fact that a new mouthpiece helped so much probably suggests that a change in the size, shape and weight of lip tissue was more to blame than anything else. If the ability to generate sufficient compression had been lost I am skeptical that a new mouthpiece alone would allow one to return to their previous level. The sentence about his 'lips spreading' is also indicative of a thinner lip surface rather than a lack of compression.

As always; very happy if people disagree and am open to any discussion. Great thread!

[kalijah]

[Irving]

If one could prove that losing weight=losing playing strength, then wouldn't the opposite be true? Gain weight = gain playing strength! I don't believe it myself, although, the fact of losing my scle tone makes sense, if you don't have some sort of exercise program going at the same time.

[Turkle]

I know that when I finally got in shape - right around my 30th year - I put on a whole bunch of muscle mass. It did wonders for my playing.

Not strictly relevant to the OP, I suppose, but it's been my experience.
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[gstump]

I went on the Atkins diet back in the 70's. My protein levels were way down due to eating cheap disgusting foods like hotdogs rather than protein rich foods like fish and beef.

My lip tissue changed as I lost 40-50 pounds. I was playing on a Severesen Jet-Tone with a round rim and sharp bite. I cut my lip in a crescent shape around 3/8" wide by 3/32" deep.

I would use that stuff bowlers use to seal up my lip for my 5 hour horn band gig. It would open up every night but not bleed. Dave Culp, (Mercy, Mercy Album) left the band to join Anka and said he figured I would never play again.

I took off for 6 weeks and had to take out a bank loan to pay the bills. The cut healed and I worked on using less pressure, improved my diet and exercise routine and totally recovered. I also had Scott Laskey desgin a very flat custom rim for me which I still use on all my pieces.

Losing weight quickly can make you weaker if you are not careful. Skin tissue changes as well. There was folklore back in the day that you had to bulk up to play lead. Combine that with all the required self medicating on booze and many famous lead players had the life expectancy of a tsetse fly.

Good times!
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[Turkle]

I suspect that there is some confusion around this issue.

Being fat isn't good or bad for your playing.

Being skinny isn't good or bad for your playing.

It's the delta - the rapid change between the two states - that causes issues.

It's clear from many of the insightful posts based on personal experience above that rapid weight loss can cause serious changes in lip tissue and shape and can lead to muscle loss.

And I imagine the opposite case - getting fat rapidly - would have deleterious effects on one's playing as well.

As is so often the case, extremely rapid weight loss or other changes to one's body are violently disruptive and often risky and/or unhealthy. This is why so many doctors argue against swing/extreme dieting.

The above is intended to clarify that the issue is not with one body type or another but the rapid transition that can cause serious issues with players in demanding situations.

Easy does it folks! Be careful out there!
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