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Weight and Compression


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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the difference then between two notes that are a different pitch but played at the same pressure?

I could easily demonstrate a low note played at a certain pressure and a higher note that is a little softer and played at exactly the same pressure.

Obviously you also fail to recognize that pressure is required to change for a dynamic change.

One can also hold pressure constant and change the aperture to ascend or descend.

Just because air pressure supplies the energy for the tone does not also mean that it determines the pitch played. You should be able to see that this would be a real problem for controlling the dynamic.

Quote:

Both are astonishing players and I think it is clear neither of them are drastically tightening their lip surface in order to play high, the work is being done with air compression (and therefore some form of internal resistance) along with a well controlled aperture.


You are correct that the work is done by air pressure, (actually, "power" would be a more accurate term in this case, that is, energy per time). But the energy does not determine the frequency. Now you introduce the word "drastically" in regard to what you think they are doing in the aperture. Well I guess "drastic" is in the eye of the beholder. These videos Prove nothing. You have also now introduced to the phrase " well controlled aperture". Are you kidding me?

You also keep referring to some type of internal resistance as the controlling factor of air pressure. What "internal resistance" are you referring to? Do you not recognize that the blowing effort via the muscles of exhalation are the cause of air pressure not some "resistance"?

it appears you are going to great lengths to attempt to prove that your "mental picture" of what is happening is the correct explanation in a technical sense.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
What is the difference then between two notes that are a different pitch but played at the same pressure?

I could easily demonstrate a low note played at a certain pressure and a higher note that is a little softer and played at exactly the same pressure.

Obviously you also fail to recognize that pressure is required to change for a dynamic change.

One can also hold pressure constant and change the aperture to ascend or descend.

Just because air pressure supplies the energy for the tone does not also mean that it determines the pitch played. You should be able to see that this would be a real problem for controlling the dynamic.

Quote:

Both are astonishing players and I think it is clear neither of them are drastically tightening their lip surface in order to play high, the work is being done with air compression (and therefore some form of internal resistance) along with a well controlled aperture.


You are correct that the work is done by air pressure, (actually, "power" would be a more accurate term in this case, that is, energy per time). But the energy does not determine the frequency. Now you introduce the word "drastically" in regard to what you think they are doing in the aperture. Well I guess "drastic" is in the eye of the beholder. These videos Prove nothing. You have also now introduced to the phrase " well controlled aperture". Are you kidding me?

You also keep referring to some type of internal resistance as the controlling factor of air pressure. What "internal resistance" are you referring to? Do you not recognize that the blowing effort via the muscles of exhalation are the cause of air pressure not some "resistance"?

it appears you are going to great lengths to attempt to prove that your "mental picture" of what is happening is the correct explanation in a technical sense.


Darryl,

The important point here, that you keep missing, is that it is air pressure difference which causes the speed of the vibration.

This air pressure difference (ie. the difference in the pressure of the air behind the lips and atmospheric pressure on the outside) is the key the frequency. This air pressure can be influenced by a number of factors; amongst them would be compression (can I stress again; internal resistance is necessary to stimulate the creation of compression. The intercostal muscles have no sensory neurones and cannot be consciously controlled (like the heart) and rather require a stimulus (in this case resistance to blow against) in order to generate this compression).

Making the aperture smaller will increase the air pressure behind the lips (assuming the supply of air remains consistent) and this will raise the frequency, but you see the aperture is simply affecting air pressure- it is not in itself the reason for the frequency change.

Equally, stimulating greater compression via increased internal resistance (whilst the aperture remains unchanged) will also raise the air pressure behind the lips and raise the frequency.

And I think there is some confusion about 'air pressure change required for dynamic change'. The air pressure difference remains the same for the same pitch, however the aperture must be larger to allow a greater flow rate (thanks for that terminology) which means that without greater air power the pressure will drop and the pitch will fall. So in order to increase dynamic we must increase the air power, which compensates for the enlarging of the aperture.

Is there anything here which is unclear?

Many thanks
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
intercostal muscles have no sensory neurones and cannot be consciously controlled (like the heart)



Anyone can will fully take conscious control of breathing muscles at any time regardless of the resistance encountered.


Last edited by kalijah on Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Furthermore, as far as regards the 'string theory' (not nearly as complex as genuine string theory!), the number of vibrations per second doubles every octave. In order for the hypothesis of 'the lips tighten like a string to increase frequency' to be true, the lips would have to double in tightness every octave (and conversely become doubly as loose every descending octave). Does anyone here truly believe that is the case?

Do you think any of the players we have talk about look like their lips are:

x level of tightness for a low C
2x level of tightness for a C in the middle of the stave.
4x level of tightness for a high C
8x level of tightness for a double C

Thanks for the continuing discussion.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
intercostal muscles have no sensory neurones and cannot be consciously controlled (like the heart)



Anyone can have conscious control of breathing muscles at any time regardless of the resistance encountered.


No that is not true Darryl. You cannot create compression without a stimulus. Just try now forcing yourself to exhale compressed air...
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does anyone here truly believe that is the case?


The tightness of the string is not the only variable in regard to frequency. The length of the string is a very drastic effect on the frequency of vibration. Where you have both firmness that is "tension" AND size at our disposal it is easy to see in the clear mouthpiece videos that the aperture is reducing in size as the pitch ascends.

This is also why the smaller aperture required for higher pitches requires more air pressure. The smaller aperture has more resistance and limits the flow. It does not increase the pressure bearing upon it. Only the blowing effort or lung pressure determines that in this case.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
Does anyone here truly believe that is the case?


The tightness of the string is not the only variable in regard to frequency. The length of the string is a very drastic effect on the frequency of vibration. Where you have both firmness that is "tension" AND size at our disposal it is easy to see in the clear mouthpiece videos that the aperture is reducing in size as the pitch ascends.

This is also why the smaller aperture required for higher pitches requires more air pressure. The smaller aperture has more resistance and limits the flow. It does not increase the pressure bearing upon it. Only the blowing effort or lung pressure determines that in this case.


Sorry Darryl,

Please re-read my earlier long post. I don't believe what you are saying is correct.

Many thanks
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is not correct about it? That halfing the length of a string doubles the frequency? Have you seen the clear mouthpiece videos?
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boog
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have lost weight during the course of this learned discussion! It does not appear to have influenced my range, however.

I am sure there are others that have gained weight during the same time period.

Please let us know the results...
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lambchop
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:


And I think there is some confusion about 'air pressure change required for dynamic change'. The air pressure difference remains the same for the same pitch, however the aperture must be larger to allow a greater flow rate (thanks for that terminology) which means that without greater air power the pressure will drop and the pitch will fall. So in order to increase dynamic we must increase the air power, which compensates for the enlarging of the aperture


Interesting theories, but I think pitch isn't fixed with the pressure difference. Try mouthpiece buzzing and indeed the pitch goes up if the pressure is increased, but then try keep the pressure the same and increase lip tension. The pitch also goes up. Now keep pressure and lip tension the same and see if tongue level makes any difference. It doesn't seem to.
When you add the horn to the system, it is resonant at a certain frequency, so flow at that frequency is a lot easier than flow at any other frequency, but now the volume of the chamber behind the lips is more of a factor that changes the resonance. So I tend to think that the high notes just need the smaller volume chamber behind the lips but not convinced that there is a special high pressure jet of air that forms to assist the high notes even though one may make a hissing type of orfice with the tongue.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boog wrote:
I have lost weight during the course of this learned discussion! It does not appear to have influenced my range, however.

I am sure there are others that have gained weight during the same time period.

Please let us know the results...


Yes, too much popcorn. Also,whatever consensus our resident scientists reach if any will not help my range which has been stuck at Ab for 50 years.


I have a very low IQ. It seems to help my trumpet playing.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So I tend to think that the high notes just need the smaller volume chamber behind the lips but


Thomas Moore PHD did a series of experiments that showed that the oral volume has no direct effect on pitch. Changes in the oral posture are only ancillary actions to controlling the aperture. It is the state of the lip apeture that controls pitch.

The only resonance that matters is the one in the instrument.

This is an established AND accepted fact. Regardless of what YOUR mental "picture" is.
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boog
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gstump wrote:


I have a very low IQ. It seems to help my trumpet playing.


Me too. I married a red-headed singer and piano player, and her IQ dusts my britches.

However, I am staying in a Holiday Inn Express during a gig this weekend!
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lambchop
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
So I tend to think that the high notes just need the smaller volume chamber behind the lips but


Thomas Moore PHD did a series of experiments that showed that the oral volume has no direct effect on pitch. Changes in the oral posture are only ancillary actions to controlling the aperture. It is the state of the lip apeture that controls pitch.

The only resonance that matters is the one in the instrument.

This is an established AND accepted fact. Regardless of what YOUR mental "picture" is.

Maybe so, but I couldn't find a paper by Moore on that. There was one by Wolfe that showed the oral cavity resonance was an effect, although not as great as the horn, and shows measurements on how the oral cavity resonance pulls note pitch when players changed tongue height. It was less an effect on higher notes, but it was also harder to measure. My statement about the impedance of the horn being low at resonance is inaccurate. I should just leave it that the impedance spikes at resonance cause the lips to vibrate at the resonant frequency ( modified slightly by the oral cavity resonance). You could still be right if he really proved the oral cavity resonance was incidental and the lips were changed during the tongue height changes. The tongue affects the air direction which might be something to think about.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
If pitch were due to air pressure then it would not be possible to vary volume of sound without the pitch changing.


If pitch was only due to air pressure that would be true. But that is not the case. Tongue arch and lip tension are both involved as well. When we play a particular note - say, a middle C - and want to make it louder, as we blower harder we (likely unconsciously) also drop the tongue arch down a bit and relax our lips, to prevent the note from climbing up. The compensating change in tongue arch while changing dynamics on a note can be seen on the Sarah Willis MRI videos.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One final thought:

What abilities I developed as a trumpet player, I did so long before there was an Internet, let alone, long detailed discussions, analyses, and arguments about the exact phenomena happening when we play the trumpet on said Internet.

I was always a pretty good player (it helped that I started private lessons at the beginning of 3rd grade, and then shortly thereafter we moved to a place where kids didn't start band until 5th grade, giving me a multi-year head start). But my abilities started really taking off at age 16 when I learned about Claude Gordon, bought his books and started practicing out of them. And then things sort of went into hyperdrive (if you can call about 7 years of heavy duty practicing "hyperdrive") when I started studying with Claude in person about a year later.

Beyond directing me to take full breaths, keep my chest up, think "eee" with my tongue for high notes and "aw" for low notes, blow stronger ("step on the gas") for the high notes, lift my fingers high and strike the valves hard (except when playing a ballad), and teaching me to tongue in the way Herbert L. Clarke taught him to tongue (Dorsal Tonguing aka K-Tongue Modified), there was not much discussion as to the mechanics involved when practicing and playing. I don't think we ever discussed air velocity. Perhaps more important than the above stated generalities he said to me, he told me to practice, practice, practice and he assigned me a whole lot of material to practice, and he taught me how to practice correctly. It was that correct practicing and sticking with it long enough for the desired development to occur that gave me the abilities I have - abilities that have allowed me to have a wonderful career as a player. I imagine Darryl would and does trace his high level of ability on the trumpet to similar practice.

Claude used to talk about the uselessness of how different "authorities" of the instrument would take their turns at the podium at brass symposiums talking about their theories about brass playing. Claude would then say, "We don't learn to play by theory, we learn to play by feel." He was right. I think he'd get a big kick out of some of these Internet discussions. And he'd probably admonish me for wasting good practice time.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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