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Weight and Compression


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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
I recall that Doc Severinsen posted a video about how to play high notes, and used the same garden hose, with thumb analogy. What does this tell us? That a great trumpet player did not understand the actual physics involved in playing high notes. I'm not saying this in a negative way in the least. Understanding the physics of playing the trumpet won't help you in learning how to play it, just as knowing how a car works won't help you learning how to drive it. Nevertheless, the debunking of age old myths really seems to be ruffling a few feathers.


No Irving, it tells us Doc Severinsen knew exactly what he was talking about. The "age old myth" that a very few still cling to is the idea that the lip deserves all the credit for the high notes.

In particular, it is interesting to hear what the distinguished Professor of Kinesiology Peter Iltis (himself a horn player) says at 9:30 on the video that appears on this page:

https://www.dw.com/en/sarahs-music-music-and-science/av-18404705

And also at 10:18 on the video:

Quote:
“When you get to the top notes this opening [while pointing at the area above the arching tongue on the video display] is getting much smaller; you’re actually channeling the air through a much smaller airway, it’s going much faster and that’s helping you to play the notes higher. On the lower notes it’s a very wide open area.”
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iltis didn't make any outlandish claim about increasing pressure by putting his thumb on a garden hose. Although he did say that the air is moving faster where the cross-section area is smaller, he didn't claim that this makes the air move faster through the lip aperture. (And he's a professor; he probably doesn't need to be puffed up with a phony "distinguished professor" title. The laws of physics aren't affected by inflated academic titles).
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to ask that professor how he measured the velocity. If high notes are claimed to have less air flow than low ones. How do you KNOW that the velocity is greater? How do you know that it's not the same velocity but through a more narrow path?

You don't. And neither does the professor. Not that it matters.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
I would love to ask that professor how he measured the velocity.

That would be an interesting experiment, if someone ever figures out how to do it. I've measured pressures and velocities of air in countless systems, but I don't think a hot-wire anemometer would be welcome inside a trumpet player's mouth. For pressure, all you need is a small enough microphone.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know that the velocity is faster – though I think it could very well be. It certainly is when I remove the mouthpiece from the equation and arch my tongue while blowing the same as I do when playing. I can feel the air become a much thinner, faster stream. And intuitively speaking, if one maintains or even increases the pressure supplied to an airstream moving through a tube and then one creates a small restriction in the end of the tube, just as with that good old nozzle on the end of a garden hose, the velocity is certainly going to be increased. But maybe the resistance supplied by the lips prevents that velocity increase from happening. I doubt that’s the case but who knows for sure? Until some way is devised to measure that velocity nobody will know for sure. What I do know is that blowing harder and arching the tongue are two necessary steps to playing in the upper register, in particular above around a High C. That is what matters to me.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and I called him a distinguished professor because I figured he deserves that title given that he conducts research internationally. You all can call him whatever you’d like…
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
RobertP wrote:
Quote:
At a particular blowing force you can increase the pressure by increasing the restriction. This is a fact.


That is NOT a fact.

If what you wrote is true then infinite resistance would yield infinite pressure.

Not all - at this point your previous statement of the maximum blowing force comes into play - if you block off the escape of air or water altogether the pressure would increase to the limit of the particular blowing force/spigot opening.

Again, to once again clarify to make sure we're talking about the same thing, I'm talking about up to the point of restriction - i.e. the pressure within the oral cavity/chest cavity.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But even for a low note, the resistance due to the instrument and aperture are far far more than the resistance of the airway from the lungs up to the aperture. It is very very safe to conclude that the air pressure in the oral space is the same as what the lungs provide.

One cannot increase the pressure in the oral space any further by simply increasing the resistance of the aperture.

ONLY increasing the blowing effort will increase the pressure in the lungs and in the oral space while you are playing the trumpet.

Quote:

Not all - at this point your previous statement of the maximum blowing force comes into play - if you block off the escape of air or water altogether the pressure would increase to the limit of the particular blowing force/spigot opening.


You seem to be confused that there must always be a flow. If the resistance is infinite the pressure is the pressure. The flow is zero. Just because one blocks the air completely does that mean it is required to use maximum strength to raise the pressure in an attempt to sustain flow. I can generate a range of pressures with an infinite resistance, or that is, no flow.

But considering the hose that you are so fond of, if there is a nozzle at the end of the hose such that the source pressure is now available just before the nozzle, making the nozzle progressively smaller will not further increase the pressure.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While a restriction (such as a nozzle on the end of a hose) cannot increase the pressure in the hose above that of the supply pressure, I do believe it can increase the pressure of the water flowing through the hose up to where it is closer to that of the supply pressure. As an example, I know that with a leaky hose, the leak will not be as bad if there is no nozzle on the end of the hose and the water is just flowing through, where as the leak will be much stronger and spray out of the leak hole more and farther if a nozzle is on the end of the hose.

And another example: If I blow as hard as I can with my mouth wide open I don't turn red. But if I blow as hard as I can while playing a high note, my face turns red and the reason is because I am blowing against a resistance and creating thoracic air pressure above that of my venous pressure, causing the blood in my head to not come out as easily.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the case of blowing through a wide open mouth never exists while playing. Yet it does demonstrate how low of resistance the airway is up to the aperture, even with a very high flow. But while playing, the pressure is not determined by the resistance of the aperture and instrument. It is determined by the blowing effort.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
As an example, I know that with a leaky hose, the leak will not be as bad if there is no nozzle on the end of the hose and the water is just flowing through, where as the leak will be much stronger and spray out of the leak hole more and farther if a nozzle is on the end of the hose.

An excellent demonstration that the pressure in the hose does increase with increased resistance.
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several really smart people are having a tough time agreeing. All this is just really hard!

Please correct me if I am wrong, as I offer this in good natured humility:

Fluid in a tube behaves as R=deltaP/Q where R= Resistance, P=Pressure, and Q=Flow.
Electricity behaves the same: I=V/R, or R=V/I, where R=Resistance, V=Voltage (Pressure), and I= Current (Flow).

In both of these systems, increasing resistance will decrease flow, unless pressure is increased.
For us trumpet players, this is akin to increasing tongue arch or reducing the aperture. Surely, when we ascend and arch the tongue, we simultaneously (actively) increase pressure using the muscles of expiration. If we didn't increase pressure, it would not increase passively and flow would go down. In that case, air column vibration frequency might not go up like we want??

Another kicker is that fluid in a tube is not very compressible, whereas air is very compressible. Is that why it's so hard to find a perfect analogy?

John and Robert, I don't think the "hole-in-the-hose" example means that the water pressure goes up when you reduce nozzle aperture. Isn't water pressure determined by the water tower height?
In a system with more than one outflow, like the hose with a nozzle and a side leak, flow will go where resistance is least. Tighten down the nozzle and the leak opens up.

I have a headache!
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
both of these systems, increasing resistance will decrease flow, unless pressure is increased.
For us trumpet players, this is akin to increasing tongue arch or reducing the aperture. Surely, when we ascend and arch the tongue, we simultaneously (actively) increase pressure using the muscles of expiration. If we didn't increase pressure, it would not increase passively and flow would go down. In that case, air column vibration frequency might not go up like we want??


You are generally correct except the tongue arch, if excessive, would reduce the pressure as well, and the note would just be of less volume.

Pitch is not determined by air pressure. Reducing the aperture increases it's frequency. It is not due to air pressure.

And in the relatively low pressure range we use to play the air can be considered incompressible without a significant loss of accuracy.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
both of these systems, increasing resistance will decrease flow, unless pressure is increased.
For us trumpet players, this is akin to increasing tongue arch or reducing the aperture. Surely, when we ascend and arch the tongue, we simultaneously (actively) increase pressure using the muscles of expiration. If we didn't increase pressure, it would not increase passively and flow would go down. In that case, air column vibration frequency might not go up like we want??


You are generally correct except the tongue arch, if excessive, would reduce the pressure as well, and the note would just be of less volume.

Pitch is not determined by air pressure. Reducing the aperture increases it's frequency. It is not due to air pressure.

And in the relatively low pressure range we use to play the air can be considered incompressible without a significant loss of accuracy.


I have to disagree here.

Pitch is related to air pressure. And the aperture is definitely not the sole factor in increasing frequency! If that were true then we could sustain 'long note' of air and merely decrease size of the aperture, you would run out of aperture (and close up) very quickly...

High frequency is a fast vibration, fast vibration is formed by a large difference in air pressure zones. In the case of the trumpet, the high inter-oral pressure trying to equalise with the external air pressure, the larger the difference the faster the lips open and shut and the faster the vibration (the frequency).

Pitch is definitely determined by air pressure.

Interested to hear all your thoughts. Thanks
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See next

Last edited by kalijah on Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If pitch were due to air pressure then it would not be possible to vary volume of sound without the pitch changing.

Smaller/ firmer aperture pulsates at a higher frequency. Similar to why a shorter string has a higher frequency of vibration, or a shorter pendulum swings at a higher frequency, or a smaller spring etc.

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#lips
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hand waving follows.

A trumpet is a tuned pipe. It has resonant frequencies based upon its length (which can be varied by the valves). If you do the math (and believe me Darryl has, many times, in the 15 or so years he has been on TH carrying the physics and flow dynamics torch) it obeys the physics of a closed tube, subject to the bell flare that modifies the harmonic series, so since the bell is open the closure is at the lips. They close, air blows them open, the resonant wave hits and rebounds from the bell (or along the pipe -- depends upon the pitch), and the lips close, cycle repeats. Airflow does not determine the pitch; what sound do you make if you blow as hard as you can through the horn without a mouthpiece? Tension in the lips adjusts the pitch, not really anything else in the system to do that. Increasing airflow usually causes us to tense the lips and helps the pitch go up, but that is an effect and not the cause of the change in pitch.

IMO - Don
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Hand waving follows.

A trumpet is a tuned pipe. It has resonant frequencies based upon its length (which can be varied by the valves). If you do the math (and believe me Darryl has, many times, in the 15 or so years he has been on TH carrying the physics and flow dynamics torch) it obeys the physics of a closed tube, subject to the bell flare that modifies the harmonic series, so since the bell is open the closure is at the lips. They close, air blows them open, the resonant wave hits and rebounds from the bell (or along the pipe -- depends upon the pitch), and the lips close, cycle repeats. Airflow does not determine the pitch; what sound do you make if you blow as hard as you can through the horn without a mouthpiece? Tension in the lips adjusts the pitch, not really anything else in the system to do that. Increasing airflow usually causes us to tense the lips and helps the pitch go up, but that is an effect and not the cause of the change in pitch.

IMO - Don


Hi,

This is exactly the point I am trying to make!

Airflow does not determine pitch at all. But I do not believe that that tension in the lips is necessary either; indeed, much like the string, we can tighten them and raise the pitch a little, but again this is a very limited methodology. It is the air pressure difference between us and external air pressure, which is was causes the open/shut motion of the lips, and thus vibration. The lips don't have to be tense, and it is beneficial if they remain relaxed so as to react more sympathetically to the standing wave created within the closed system of the instrument.

Thanks for that link Darryl, I have spent many hours on that website and it is very useful!

All the best
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
If pitch were due to air pressure then it would not be possible to vary volume of sound without the pitch changing.

Smaller/ firmer aperture pulsates at a higher frequency. Similar to why a shorter string has a higher frequency of vibration, or a shorter pendulum swings at a higher frequency, or a smaller spring etc.

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#lips


I disagree here.

Air pressure difference (between the artificially high air pressure we create in the oral cavity behind the lips and atmospheric pressure on the outside) is the key to the vibration. A small air pressure difference creates a slow vibration (as the lips open and shut lazily) and a larger air pressure difference causes a faster vibration (as the lips are opening and shutting hurriedly).

High notes can be played with a relatively large aperture (that is what happens when people can play very loud high notes) but it requires a greater level of air compression to bring the inter-oral pressure up to the level required to create the necessary frequency. In order to generate this compression one must first be able to increase the resistance in the system (the instrument is a fixed resistance so that can't help!), this resistance can be increased via the tongue arch (most commonly), the throat (ill advised), the lips (but since they are controlling the aperture this can't necessarily work) and potential irregularities in dental structure providing a natural resistance.

Please read this carefully.

Many thanks. All the best to you all
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And for anyone else who suggests that high notes require the lips to be pulled tighter (like a string) in order to achieve the correct frequency, watch some of the (amazing) videos of Louis Dowdeswell on youtube and also this video of Paul Mayes.

Both are astonishing players and I think it is clear neither of them are drastically tightening their lip surface in order to play high, the work is being done with air compression (and therefore some form of internal resistance) along with a well controlled aperture.

Louis' youtube page: https://www.youtube.com/user/ChickenTiko

Paul Mayes' video: https://youtu.be/xMAlLI-O3xk

Please speak up if you disagree!

Many thanks
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